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Jack Hughes or Elias Pettersson

Better player?
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17 août 2022 à 22 h 10
#76
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
He kills penalties


Takeaways per 60 since Hughes entered league:

Miller 1.96
Pettersson 1.91
Horvat 1.32

Hughes 2.94
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17 août 2022 à 22 h 13
#77
Speak of the Devil
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
Dude, being able to kill penalties is a very definitive testament to a players defensive ability, that shouldn't be hard to understand


It doesn't.

Devils can play Hughes on the PK. They chose not to because they're smart and don't want him to block shots and get injured. That shouldn't be hard to understand

Give me stats, analytics to back it up

I just don't like hearing takes that don't have a lot of thought put into them
17 août 2022 à 22 h 13
#78
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Takeaways per 60 since Hughes entered league:

Miller 1.96
Pettersson 1.91
Horvat 1.32

Hughes 2.94


At even strength
17 août 2022 à 22 h 15
#79
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Quoting: Devil
It doesn't.

Devils can play Hughes on the PK. They chose not to because they're smart and don't want him to block shots and get injured. That shouldn't be hard to understand

Give me stats, analytics to back it up

I just don't like hearing takes that don't have a lot of thought put into them


OMG, way to back yourself into a corner. Canucks employ Pettersson and Quinn on the power play without much worry about blocking shots, because their PK strategy is more aggressive and pressures the opposing team to move the puck quickly. The Devils should do the same with their special teams
17 août 2022 à 22 h 16
#80
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
OMG, way to back yourself into a corner. Canucks employ Pettersson and Quinn on the power play without much worry about blocking shots, because their PK strategy is more aggressive and pressures the opposing team to move the puck quickly. The Devils should do the same with their special teams


Canucks: 74.9% PK
Devils: 80.2% PK

Canucks should try a different strategy
17 août 2022 à 22 h 17
#81
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Quoting: Devil
Canucks: 74.9% PK
Devils: 80.2% PK

Canucks should try a different strategy


LMAO, they did after they fired Travis Green and altered their system. Look at their PK strictly under Bruce Boudreau
17 août 2022 à 22 h 19
#82
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
LMAO, they did after they fired Travis Green and altered their system. Look at their PK strictly under Bruce Boudreau


80% under Bruce Boudreau

That's about league average
17 août 2022 à 22 h 20
#83
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Quoting: Devil
80% under Bruce Boudreau

That's about league average


Yup, and the Canucks PK is going to be even better next season with the additions of Lazar and Mikheyev
17 août 2022 à 22 h 22
#84
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
At even strength


Yes

(Also doesn’t account for the NHL-leading time with puck on his stick. There is a possession adjusted stat that makes these even more imbalanced.)
17 août 2022 à 22 h 23
#85
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
Yup, and the Canucks PK is going to be even better next season with the additions of Lazar and Mikheyev


And how is that relavent?
17 août 2022 à 22 h 24
#86
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Yes

(Also doesn’t account for the NHL-leading time with puck on his stick. There is a possession adjusted stat that makes these even more imbalanced.)


To be clear, I've never said that there aren't aspects of the game that Hughes excel's at more so than Petey, just that I think Petey's shown he can be a more complete player thus far
17 août 2022 à 22 h 25
#87
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Quoting: Devil
And how is that relavent?


I mean, you were saying that the Canucks should use a different PK strategy, I pointed out that you were behind the times regarding their special teams outlook, since you moved from comparing Pettersson and Jack to comparing team penalty kill
17 août 2022 à 22 h 31
#88
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
I mean, you were saying that the Canucks should use a different PK strategy, I pointed out that you were behind the times regarding their special teams outlook, since you moved from comparing Pettersson and Jack to comparing team penalty kill


You forget to mention you said "The Devils should do the same with their special teams"
17 août 2022 à 22 h 31
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
To be clear, I've never said that there aren't aspects of the game that Hughes excel's at more so than Petey, just that I think Petey's shown he can be a more complete player thus far


Gotcha.

I feel, at this point, the lopsided vote speaks for itself.

I think a Hischier vs Pettersson poll would be interesting to see…since they are both top-5 from same draft year.
17 août 2022 à 22 h 31
#90
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Quoting: Devil
You forget to mention you said "The Devils should do the same with their special teams"


Well, if they want to be a playoff team next season...
17 août 2022 à 22 h 32
#91
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Gotcha.

I feel, at this point, the lopsided vote speaks for itself.

I think a Hischier vs Pettersson poll would be interesting to see…since they are both top-5 from same draft year.


Pettersson winds that poll by a landslide
17 août 2022 à 22 h 36
#92
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
Pettersson winds that poll by a landslide


Only one way to find out
17 août 2022 à 22 h 44
#93
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Only one way to find out


Oh it's already headed well in that direction
18 août 2022 à 7 h 31
#94
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Quoting: Devil
Same can be said for Hughes

Have you ever watched Hughes play hockey?


When I do he is dropping to the ice left and right from basic hits and Devils players are flying over to “defend” him
18 août 2022 à 7 h 33
#95
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Takeaways per 60 since Hughes entered league:

Miller 1.96
Pettersson 1.91
Horvat 1.32

Hughes 2.94


Give the full story:

Hughes takeaways vs give aways last year: 49-60

Pettersson takeaways vs giveaways: 56-39
18 août 2022 à 9 h 37
#96
What in tarnation
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Quoting: MikeKeenanHatesMe
Give the full story:

Hughes takeaways vs give aways last year: 49-60

Pettersson takeaways vs giveaways: 56-39


Hughes's games last year - 49

Pettersson's games last year - 80

It's staggering that first you ask for full story, and then not take into account that Hughes had only 7 takeaways less than Petey did but also 31 games less.

Exactly why @NHLfan10506 provided career totals, not one year totals which ended up early due to injury for him...
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18 août 2022 à 9 h 46
#97
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Interesting poll.

My short answer to the question of who is the better player:

It's Jack Hughes in my opinion.

My long answer to the question is based on 3 parts.

1. Jack Hughes' career trajectory is and has been upwards throughout his career. We're talking about a 21-year old center who is widely considered as a top15 center in the league already, and one potentially able to reach the top5. Some people have shown here that aside from his rookie year, his offensive contribution is the same or better as MacKinnon had at the same stage of his career.

This has not been the case with Elias Pettersson. Pettersson's two first years in the league were absolutely amazing, but after that he hasn't been able to reach the same level. There's a plethora of reasons for this starting from covid and different injury challenges, but ultimately Pettersson's career trajectory is not looking similar. He's trending downwards from his rookie year. Sure, he's still relatively young too, being 24 at the season start, and can and probably will bounce back, which he partly did last year at the end of it. Still, before his injury Hughes was easily the top performer in New Jersey, meanwhile Pettersson, who is supposed to be Vancouver's clear cut 1C, ultimately ended up trailing by 30 points to their 2C.

2. Jack Hughes' two way game is pretty underrated actually. This was the best shown during 2020-21 season where he started to find his game in the league, as shown by the charts put under there, and 2021-22 when he took the step forward in terms of offensive contribution, by no means he turned bad defensively. Some people have claimed here Pettersson to contribute more defensively, but at least based on evolving-hockey's model this is not the correct take. Yes, VAN by choice have decided to use Pettersson as a penalty killer, but that doesn't automatically mean he's more adept in defending. It just means that they either don't have a better guy for the role, or that their PK is built in an aggressive way that could use having skilled guys in there. Whatever their thought process were, it hasn't really produced results, given that Vancouver's PK% of 77.1 was the fourth worst league-wide last year.

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3. Quality of team mates. Hughes' immensely good production can also be put to a different light when we look at how the teams have managed. Vancouver has been a fringe playoff team pretty much throughout the time Pettersson has been a part of the team. New Jersey has been a bottom-5 team smack dab in the middle of a rebuild, and still Hughes puts up statistically better results. He also makes players around him better - Jesper Bratt has turned into a bonafide top-6 winger that could challenge to the top line in almost any team in the league. Sharangovich has turned to a solid 2nd line guy as well playing with the guy. Pettersson does play in a better team, and should he be considered better player he should get better results.

Overall, even though of the two I do prefer Hughes, there's nothing to take away from the fact that as a 23, soon to be 24 year old Pettersson has left a mark that is not easy to just ignore. Before the covid break all the things said earlier about Hughes could've easily been applied to Pettersson, other than him having a bad rookie year, because Pettersson's rookie year was absolutely stellar. Pettersson could be, and probably is, a franchise worthy player in his own right, and we have seen glimpses of this. Still, for the question of who I think is better right now, I would have to choose Jack Hughes.
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18 août 2022 à 10 h 6
#98
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Quoting: MikeKeenanHatesMe
Give the full story:

Hughes takeaways vs give aways last year: 49-60

Pettersson takeaways vs giveaways: 56-39


Give the full story

Hughes will have more giveaways since he carries the puck on his stick more than anyone (dig up the possession-weighted stats.)

Also considering that when Hughes is on the ice, he is less likely to give up a scoring chance (or high-danger scoring chance) than Pettersson, those giveaways are not likely hurting the Devils since they are in o-zone or at end of possession.
18 août 2022 à 10 h 11
#99
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
those giveaways are not likely hurting the Devils since they are in o-zone or at end of possession.


It's more likely that a significant portion of those giveaways occur upon his entries where possession is briefly lost but quickly regained either within the o zone or the puck is retrieved in the n zone as he retries his entry. See the numbers of entries attempted vs. the rate of entry success vs. recoveries.



Either way, Jack Hughes giveaways are likely on average a non-factor in the outcome of any given game.
Doesn't seem to be anything worthwhile reading anything into.
18 août 2022 à 10 h 15
#100
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Quoting: Knuckl3s
Okay, then consider the scoring pace he was at in the 2nd half of last season. No reason to believe he can't sustain something similar to that. No, Petey didn't kill penalties in his first two seasons, but he's taken that step in his game last season, Hughes didn't though


Most Young players don't kill penalties that's why Petey didn't do it in his first few seasons and why Hughes didn't. Sure Petey was great last year under Boudreau he was just over PPG. But me being someone who's played Hockey my entire life I think what Hughes does on the ice is just more impressive.

Petey is still a great player. I think he will be a PPG player for most of his career. I think Hughes will be Well above PPG for most of his career he's 21 and has improved every year if he can just get stronger which there is no reason to believe he can't I think he is a Top 5 Center in the League in two years.
 
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