The world expects the Leafs to lose in the first round, but they silence the naysayers by missing the playoffs.

Wait, really? lmao this is a super team

The blueline is worse after the deals and you likely have taken goals out of the lineup even if Raymond is worth more than Nylander long-term.

[Edit] oh MacKinnon lmao. Yeah he's not going to be a Leaf.

no

Not even close? I think ppl be heavily undervaluing Nylander

4 players above 10.9 million. A recipe for success lol.

What is the rationale here? Would love to hear how this popped into someone's head lol

Am confuse; Nylander > Raymond - Nylander signs 8x8 then trade

Toronto is a cup contender (regardless of not making it out of the first round since forever).
Detroit is on tail end of rebuild.

Nylander 26 (80 points on one of the best offensive teams)
Raymond 20 (57 points on one of the worst offensive teams)

Toronto first (25-30th pick)
Veleno 22 (had his first real season in the NHL and still has a future in the league)

If Nylander is better....then why wouldn't you trade him when you are a cup contender?
Why would Detroit say "hey thanks rookie for being 3rd in ROY voting, kick rocks."

Yes you are confused. Raymond is until Wings control for years , and at his age will likely be a better player than Nylander when the Wings are contenders. Silly extension talk anyways and Nylander is not eligible for an extension at this time.

Right two bad trades....just because you want cap space

No, people are understanding cap and this hurts Wings capmoving forward and helps a division rival. Without getting rid of Nylander Leafs are hamstrung with alot of cap in so little number of players and have proven that in the playoffs, 3rd and 4th lines are important and defense past your top pairing are also important. Look at Tampa and Colorado have good 3rd and 4th liners who can hold their own for short periods and are not a liability.

why, just why? some of these AGMs make me want to bleach my eyes, nothing here makes sense for anyone

A much younger Lucas Raymond, Has all the potential to be just as good if not better than William Nylander. So Detroit passes big time.

To clear space for Mackinnon? This is also next year not this rear

If Detroit was about the long-term game they wouldn't have signed all the guys they did this offseason. Wings want to win now and also need to convince Larkin to stay. Nylander at 8x8 is insanely cheap for his production

Ever think sometimes its just for fun? Yes, may be grasping at straws, but at least there's straws

Imagine Mack + Matthews...

Thank you for proving you know absolutely zero about where the Red Wings are at lol. They are not ready to win right now and SY is on record saying that “progress” is the goal. Larkin wants to be a Wing, and SY proved to him that the team is making strides.

Detroit signed players as a bridge to make the team competitive, while allowing younger players a chance to see if they are ready. Outside of Husso (Cossa’s development policy), Copp (fits in age group), and Chiarot, every other contract on the books in two years or less. That means no cap issues, room to sign younger guys long term, and the ability to go after big time FA if need be.

Exactly, big time free agents like Nylander. I am still confuse ; I will also add that this is a team for next season, not this upcoming. Detroit will have "grown" by then. Example as well - I would rather have Nylander at 8m than Raymond at 9.5. ** Seider, Edvinsson, Larkin all need paid soon too. These are all just options, and just for fun. I made DRW version for this scenario where you sign Pasta. 8x8 Nylander allows to pay more for Pasta - Nylander, Pasta, Larkin, Seider all locked up in their prime makes Det a playoff team for years...

Yes you are very confused. Picking up a free agent is different than trading two players under 22 with upside lol.

I’ll just leave it there, because there is no sense in trying to talk to someone who has no grasp on Detroit.

Nah you're just being in the present too much. This is a trade made a year from now - so mostly speculation; for you to be so absolute makes me feel like you haven't been a fan before or recognized that a lot can change in a year. For example; the red wings could prove a lot this year and show that they are closer than ppl think to being contenders - so they COULD choose to speed things up timeline-wise. I am just having fun with things and any armchair GM for 2023-24 should be taken as pure speculation. ANyWaY....

Alright I tried being nice.

First point: Living in the present you say? You are the one offering a 26 year old who can’t get it done in the playoffs for one of the best rookies and a potential top 20 forward in the NHL. Also that 26 year old will be expiring after next year and will require a raise. The rookie will require less money and will probably be as productive if not more so, for the FUTURE. I’m looking at the future so your claim is wrong. Nylander is more of a “win now” player than Raymond, so either Toronto has elected to not go for it, or believe that Raymond is more beneficial to help them win now (aka why you made this trade). If that’s the case, once again you are wrong.

Second point: haven’t been a fan… well I suffered through the end of the “dead wing era”, witnessed 4 cups, a 25 year playoff streak, and 7 years of disaster. I’ve seen prospects fail, overachievers, terrible FA contract signings, and coaching turmoil. I’ve watched every single Wings game since I can remember, and since my actual career was in hockey for 10+ years, I think I can understand how things can change quickly. You are the one living in the present as it is Toronto that needs to shed cap space. You even articulated that this space would be used for Mack. This trade helps Toronto IN THE PRESENT and doesn’t help Detroit IN THE FUTURE. Once again, you’re wrong.

Either way, based on your trade and rationale, I’ll counter to you. Toronto needs cap space and apparently Nylander needs to leave. He is a stud so demands a lot…. Which is exactly why he is on the short list of TML trades with Kerfoot, Holl, Muzzin, Robertson. Total sense.

Detroit receives: Nylander and a first
Toronto receives: Smith, Erne, Mastrosimone, Sebrango, Stl 2nd this year

Toronto loves these trades of sending 3-4-5 for 1 trades right? Smith is tough and can help the bottom 6. Erne is only one year removed from that point total? What!? And is super cheap. Mastrosimone is easily a top prospect. A second round pick in a loaded draft when Detroit should be bad is almost an even swap for Toronto’s 1st rounder.

You are impossible to debate about this bc you contradict yourself. With the sign and trade this would still help Detroit in the future. They would have locked up Nylander (similar production as Raymond) to the same term they would lock up Raymond at but less AAV due to recency bias and Leafs fans wishing him gone. I will stay firm and ask you, would your proposal come anywhere close to acquiring JT mIller? Hell to the no! You said yourself Nylander is a stud - you have to give up studs (sometimes) to get studs.

Lol keep grasping those straws. I’m not impossible to debate with, your point is just so bad and you don’t defend it. I’ll put it as simple as possible for you.

A sign and trade is worse for Detroit. Nylander is a good player, yes, but Raymond is younger (HELPFUL FOR REBUILD based on age, possible contract, and future production). So in a rebuild…. Having Raymond is more beneficial than having Nylander, see how that works. Nylander is in his prime and can help a cup contender NOW. Wings are not there yet. There is one point that is being discussed that has been answered (not that you care to share anything other than your classic “nylander is better” response. Give me a reason as to why Nylander is more beneficial than Raymond LONG TERM. And if you try to double back again, you are the one who said Nylander is better (Nylander best season by a landslide was last year, seems like recency bias to me). Raymond has had one year and over-preformed.

JT miller? Lol if the Wings wanted JT they would have or would offer something for him. Hasn’t happened yet, so I don’t see the relevancy. My offer for him would be around the same considering: JT is older and has one year left, Nylander has two. Whether you’re talking flipping, or retaining, neither is a top option for the Wings.

Lastly, the tone of the message was pointing to the fact that Toronto has its classics (Holl, Muzzin, Robertson, Nylander, King Kerfoot). Of all of those players, who stands out? If Nylander was just an absolute horse and undeniable super star, Toronto wouldn’t even entertain getting rid of him. Yes he is good, but he is not a stud. Raymond on the other hand could be.

If you wish to “debate”, please come with facts and stats, not what your opinions and thoughts are and your notion that those views are right.

Your arguments are still pertaining to present day; this is a year from now. I GET YOUR POINT. But our dialogue will go in circles if you continue to neglect context. The context here is that a year from now, Detroit may be thinking of being contenders depending on how this year pans out - hence he can help a cup contender (Detroit) now (1 year from now) . ALso, already said why he is better long-term; Locked up at lower AAV with similar production. 2 more years of production like this for Raymond with minor improvements and he'll want Jack eichel/Marner term and money. Allows for locking up Larkin, Seider, possibly also grabbing Pasta... ANyWaY

I do respect your opinion and I appreciate the feedback. I just think you (and others) are undervaluing Nylander dramatically. I personally don't think Dubas is considering moving Nylander whatsoever. His cap hit for his production right now is amazing. I made this move for fun to have Mack and Matthews - even more unrealistic than the trade we are debating. It is for FUN. I may be off a little in trade value - but don't believe it is too far off

I understand your point. You are saying that Nylander will hold value and will be a better deal long term. I get that. I’m not arguing that. I disagree as I believe Raymond will be a better overall player, but either way I get what you are saying. I’m stating that teams prefer home grown talent. More cost control, better potential outlook, easier negotiating contracts, etc. SY scouted and drafted him, made him a featured player, and has plans for him. It would make no sense to throw that away two years into his career.

The Wings will likely be finishing 9th at best in the east this season in my opinion. They will not be cup contenders. The following year (23-24), playoffs could be a possibility. In most scenarios, teams would prefer to have cost controlled 20-25 year olds from within the organization. Raymond production/potential > Nylander LONG TERM.

All of this has also completely ignored the fact that Veleno is one of a handful of players to be granted exceptional status in major junior. I’m not saying it’s a guarantee he will be a high end NHL player, but it’s a pretty significant risk to get rid of him after one full season. For a late first rounder, not worth the risk.

Here is just a unique scenario to flip the situation. TML is in the basement for 7 years. They have cap space galore and a bevy of prospects. Detroit on the other hand is a playoff guarantee every year but cap confined and without a huge number of top prospects. Now picture Bunting having the year he did last season, but he is 20 years old. Now put him and Robertson up for trade (Veleno more valuable at this point, but for the sake of this discussion he will do). Now I suggest trading those two for Bertuzzi (last year of a deal, big time impact player) and a first rounder which will be a late pick… it makes no sense for Toronto to get rid of two budding prospects and potential stars for an older player who doesn’t get them over the hump. Toronto would still be building and Detroit would be competing, so it’s a cap move only for Detroit. That is this situation.

As far as numerical value alone, it’s not far off. Nylander outscored Raymond albeit on a top offense compared to a rookie on a bottom feeder. That scoring is outweighed by having an extra 6 years. Veleno for a late first doesn’t seem crazy if you look at it at face value. It’s the underlying stats and information that makes this trade not close. Raymond and Veleno have a chance to be cornerstone pieces. Nylander should stay with Toronto or be moved to a cup contender.