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Whip it good

Créé par: Anus_McLeod
Équipe: 2022-23 Avalanche du Colorado
Date de création initiale: 31 juill. 2022
Publié: 1 août 2022
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Habs fans will likely want more for Devorak, but I'm not sure he's really worth more after last year. Even giving up a first is a bit of a tough pill (imo). But I do think he's better than Compher and could thrive with better play driving wingers.

The hope would be that he has a good season or two and can then be moved to recoup much of the cost (or even flip a profit).
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TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2282 500 000 $81 952 500 $25 000 $3 562 500 $547 500 $
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7 000 000 $7 000 000 $
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912 500 $912 500 $ (Bonis de performance212 500 $$212K)
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908 333 $908 333 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
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3 400 000 $3 400 000 $
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5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
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4 500 000 $4 500 000 $
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UFA - 4
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2 000 000 $2 000 000 $
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UFA - 2
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894 167 $894 167 $ (Bonis de performance2 500 000 $$2M)
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RFA - 1
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6 000 000 $6 000 000 $
DD
M-NTC, NMC
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Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
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987 500 $987 500 $
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800 000 $800 000 $
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UFA - 1

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1 août 2022 à 16 h 7
#1
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I would be disappointed with that return for the Habs. It was a tough season for Dvorak so who knows
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1 août 2022 à 16 h 9
#2
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Quoting: Jacko
I would be disappointed with that return for the Habs. It was a tough season for Dvorak so who knows


I think they would be foolish to move him for this kind of return before the season starts. If he is not bouncing back to start the season then maybe you would have to settle for a trade like this one. I still think the best bet (for the habs) is wait and hope for him to bounce back.
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1 août 2022 à 16 h 11
#3
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Quoting: DangleCat
I think they would be foolish to move him for this kind of return before the season starts. If he is not bouncing back to start the season then maybe you would have to settle for a trade like this one. I still think the best bet (for the habs) is wait and hope for him to bounce back.


I would agree but have seen the school of thought that they should cut and run to give Dach a serious go at 2C. Not the best idea if you ask me, but I can see some merit to it.
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1 août 2022 à 16 h 18
#4
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Quoting: Anus_McLeod
I would agree but have seen the school of thought that they should cut and run to give Dach a serious go at 2C. Not the best idea if you ask me, but I can see some merit to it.


IMO Dvorak fits best as a 3C long term anyway. I do not think Kirby is ready for 2C yet either tho...especially because he struggles so much with face-offs. I think the Habs should hold onto Dvo for at least a little while and let Kirby get a little more sheltered role and play a lot in the O-zone. If Kirby looks to be taking those next steps then you can definitely see what you can get out of Dvo.
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1 août 2022 à 16 h 29
#5
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Dvorak was on a roll to finish the season after returning from injury and after a shy start under Ducharme, so I feel like the Habs will hold onto him a bit longer before trading him at a (manageable) loss to properly see what they have in him. He's also needed to take some pressure off Dach.

Basically, I don't think there's a scenario where Dvorak is traded for futures this offseason - I can only see him in a package for a guy like Dubois.
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1 août 2022 à 16 h 38
#6
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Quoting: DangleCat
IMO Dvorak fits best as a 3C long term anyway. I do not think Kirby is ready for 2C yet either tho...especially because he struggles so much with face-offs. I think the Habs should hold onto Dvo for at least a little while and let Kirby get a little more sheltered role and play a lot in the O-zone. If Kirby looks to be taking those next steps then you can definitely see what you can get out of Dvo.


Quoting: SevenLeg
Dvorak was on a roll to finish the season after returning from injury and after a shy start under Ducharme, so I feel like the Habs will hold onto him a bit longer before trading him at a (manageable) loss to properly see what they have in him. He's also needed to take some pressure off Dach.

Basically, I don't think there's a scenario where Dvorak is traded for futures this offseason - I can only see him in a package for a guy like Dubois.


I do think that giving Dach a vote of confidence could be big for the kid (seems he's lost a bit of swagger). And if you do roll him as 2C immediately, you potentially run the risk of depleting Dvorak's value a bit.

Again, I agree with how you guys would handle it. I think that's probably the right way to go. But I could see a scenario where he gets moved earlier.
1 août 2022 à 16 h 50
#7
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Not a chance habs accept, not even if you drop the 3rd going back
1 août 2022 à 17 h 2
#8
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Modifié 1 août 2022 à 17 h 10
Dissenting opinion here, but the Habs should take this deal because it helps them lose now.

1) Dach at 2C will produce less than Dvorak which means they get a better shot at Bedard/Fantilli
2) Habs take care of their cap space problem... Cap space is very valuable right now... We'd have to give away a 2nd and maybe more to move Hoffman for example
3) 2024 pick from Colorado is better than a 2023 pick from Colorado because they are gonna be good again this year but with the cap crunch who knows what happens when they have to resign Mac, Byram, Newhook in the same offseason
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1 août 2022 à 17 h 7
#9
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Quoting: Anus_McLeod
I would agree but have seen the school of thought that they should cut and run to give Dach a serious go at 2C. Not the best idea if you ask me, but I can see some merit to it.


Dvorak = Finished top 10 in NHL Faceoff Wins in his career.
Dach = Lower Winrate then Brendan Gallagher who only takes draws when playes are thrown out.

Dach has a LONG way to go and the only way he'll succeed is if a PLD comes to play his Wing like Jumbo Joe did for Pavelski and Couture .
Dvorak you cant sacrifice like that as most of his Value is in his 55% Faceoff win rate average the past 5 years doing Bulk Faceoffs.
You take that away and teams that always overpay for Centers come TDL are out

We got Evans who's a greater Winger>Center even though he's a good Center.
He's got Chemistry with MSL who put him beside Pitlick on PK and 3rd line
Just as Easy to slot Dach between them giving him the Support he needs until a PLD comes and we can Elevate him
1 août 2022 à 17 h 14
#10
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Quoting: jonh514
Dissenting opinion here, but the Habs should take this deal because it help them lose now.

1) Dach at 2C will produce less than Dvorak which means they get a better shot at Bedard/Fantilli
2) Habs take care of their cap space problem... Cap space is very valuable right now... We'd have to give away a 2nd and maybe more to move Hoffman for example
3) 2024 pick from Colorado is better than a 2023 pick from Colorado because they are gonna be good again this year but with the cap crunch who knows what happens when they have to resign Mac, Byram, Newhook in the same offseason


MSL system doesnt work like that though
Its 1st and 3rd with 2nd and 4th rotating responsibilities.
He spreads his Grit out and "i dont play match up hockey"

His method?
Slavkovsky-Suzuki-Caufield will play a checking /shutdown role primarily 5v5 throwing many coaches match ups off.
Then come PP he doesnt start PP1 first
He puts in PP2 to get into the zone allowing the D to set up then has PP1 rush in on the fly forcing the opponent to scramble.
All the things you'd call common sense coaching , MSL looks at goes "ok then " and does something different.

He does crazy things like seeing he has a really good 1 C and 3 C
Rather then fit a square peg in a round hole he just tweaks his line up to reflect that.
As a result Pitlick got to play 2nd line Center under MSL and while he sucked at faceoffs he more often then not won possession with his quick hands and feet.


Only way to accomplish what you're saying is to trade Allen
As creative as MSL is he couldnt fix our Goaltending with Price and Allen out
While games were more competitive he owned some historic losing streaks of his own based on Goaltending issue alone.
1 août 2022 à 17 h 15
#11
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Evans gets no respect from anyone as a 3C, but he's as good a 3C as most any team has today. If I was the Habs I would trade Dvorak and roll Suzuki, Dach, Evans, Pitlick and promote Evans or Pitlick if Dach needs to move to wing. Playing Evans and his 1.7M contract in the 2C slot could also be good because he seems to be able to handle the defensive responsibilities and if he can get over the 40pts mark with the additional ice time and better wingers the Habs can flip him for a better return than they got for Lehkonen.
1 août 2022 à 17 h 23
#12
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Quoting: Billy739
MSL system doesnt work like that though
Its 1st and 3rd with 2nd and 4th rotating responsibilities.
He spreads his Grit out and "i dont play match up hockey"

His method?
Slavkovsky-Suzuki-Caufield will play a checking /shutdown role primarily 5v5 throwing many coaches match ups off.
Then come PP he doesnt start PP1 first
He puts in PP2 to get into the zone allowing the D to set up then has PP1 rush in on the fly forcing the opponent to scramble.
All the things you'd call common sense coaching , MSL looks at goes "ok then " and does something different.

He does crazy things like seeing he has a really good 1 C and 3 C
Rather then fit a square peg in a round hole he just tweaks his line up to reflect that.
As a result Pitlick got to play 2nd line Center under MSL and while he sucked at faceoffs he more often then not won possession with his quick hands and feet.


Only way to accomplish what you're saying is to trade Allen
As creative as MSL is he couldnt fix our Goaltending with Price and Allen out
While games were more competitive he owned some historic losing streaks of his own based on Goaltending issue alone.


You mean his "concepts" don't you?
To be honest I love Dvorak but he's not gonna be an essential part of this team in 3-4 years. The ideal center line for the Habs in 3 seasons is gonna be:

Bedard/Fantilli (I hope, I hope)
Suzuki
Mysak/Kidney/Beck/Kapanen/Smilanec
Mysak/Kidney/Beck/Kapanen/Smilanec

Just based on age - Dvorak/Evans/Pitlick will all probably move on by the time the team looks competitive

EDIT - and Dach will move to RW once Anderson moves on
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1 août 2022 à 18 h 58
#13
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Quoting: jonh514
You mean his "concepts" don't you?
To be honest I love Dvorak but he's not gonna be an essential part of this team in 3-4 years. The ideal center line for the Habs in 3 seasons is gonna be:

Bedard/Fantilli (I hope, I hope)
Suzuki
Mysak/Kidney/Beck/Kapanen/Smilanec
Mysak/Kidney/Beck/Kapanen/Smilanec

Just based on age - Dvorak/Evans/Pitlick will all probably move on by the time the team looks competitive

EDIT - and Dach will move to RW once Anderson moves on


I meant Method
If Quantifying it differently like a human Theasaurus makes the Context more clear
Then sure "Concepts " works i guess lol

Bedard even if Ready for the NHL isnt ready for Center in top 6
How do i know ?

Even Nathan Mckinnon fresh off the Memorial Cup Title Run where he solidified himself the best player 20 or under in the world
Following that statement up with a Calder Cup for ROY did that from RW.
Landeskog-Statsny-Mckinnon spent 2 years together before Mckiinnon was ready
Then they sold Statsny high and based on Landerskog-Mckinnon's success together landed top UFA Iginla to join them


That's the Dream right there if we get Bedard.(or for Roy)
But for Fantilli its 2 years NCAA then a spot at 3rd Center or 2nd C if Dvoraks still here
Reason why Dvorak changes things is rather then play Dvorak outside his skill set MSL plays 1 and 3 Center's vs top 6 in a shutdown role primarily but really they just chase the scorers.
2nd and 4th C's are taking the easier possession vs lesser line's and succeeding as such.

My point is in no scenario do we start either at Center especially in the top 6
Kappanen is a but or Ikonen 2.0 if that helps
Mysak is similar to Lukas Vedejmo with a upside to maybe reach Laurent Dauphin status
Kindey is Legit but needs this and parts of next season in Laval before becoming a solid 3rd line option(still will need support to jump to Center )
Smilanec is someone i expect to do well at NCAA but for MTL not to Qualify or if they do it would be a minimum in hopes he declines so they can get the Compensation pick

Roy is about to become the 5th ever back to back QMJHL Jean Beliveau Award winner for Top Scorer in the League IMO
The only other two this Millennium to do it was Connor Garland and Sidney Crosby.
Not comparing him to their play just pointing out both are Bonafide NHL Goal Scorer's
I expect him to play out his last 2 eligible years in Junior trying to become the first to win it 3 times.
He's growing adding height and weight so its best to leave him there like we did Suzuki then bring him up on a high note.

He's who we should be talking about
Outside maybe Ferrell he's the only one with top 6 Center upside.
Kidney as good as he is , he's a 3rd line Center who's there for Speacial Teams mostly (great PK Guy especially)
He's like if Eller and Gallagher had a hybrid clone made basically and a good solid replacement for Dvorak just as we'll be selling him off

Unless we get a Fantilli or Bedard its Roy , Kidney then everyone else behind Suzuki, Dach,Dvorak and Evans.
1 août 2022 à 19 h 5
#14
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Quoting: Billy739
I meant Method
If Quantifying it differently like a human Theasaurus makes the Context more clear
Then sure "Concepts " works i guess lol

Bedard even if Ready for the NHL isnt ready for Center in top 6
How do i know ?

Even Nathan Mckinnon fresh off the Memorial Cup Title Run where he solidified himself the best player 20 or under in the world
Following that statement up with a Calder Cup for ROY did that from RW.
Landeskog-Statsny-Mckinnon spent 2 years together before Mckiinnon was ready
Then they sold Statsny high and based on Landerskog-Mckinnon's success together landed top UFA Iginla to join them


That's the Dream right there if we get Bedard.(or for Roy)
But for Fantilli its 2 years NCAA then a spot at 3rd Center or 2nd C if Dvoraks still here
Reason why Dvorak changes things is rather then play Dvorak outside his skill set MSL plays 1 and 3 Center's vs top 6 in a shutdown role primarily but really they just chase the scorers.
2nd and 4th C's are taking the easier possession vs lesser line's and succeeding as such.

My point is in no scenario do we start either at Center especially in the top 6
Kappanen is a but or Ikonen 2.0 if that helps
Mysak is similar to Lukas Vedejmo with a upside to maybe reach Laurent Dauphin status
Kindey is Legit but needs this and parts of next season in Laval before becoming a solid 3rd line option(still will need support to jump to Center )
Smilanec is someone i expect to do well at NCAA but for MTL not to Qualify or if they do it would be a minimum in hopes he declines so they can get the Compensation pick

Roy is about to become the 5th ever back to back QMJHL Jean Beliveau Award winner for Top Scorer in the League IMO
The only other two this Millennium to do it was Connor Garland and Sidney Crosby.
Not comparing him to their play just pointing out both are Bonafide NHL Goal Scorer's
I expect him to play out his last 2 eligible years in Junior trying to become the first to win it 3 times.
He's growing adding height and weight so its best to leave him there like we did Suzuki then bring him up on a high note.

He's who we should be talking about
Outside maybe Ferrell he's the only one with top 6 Center upside.
Kidney as good as he is , he's a 3rd line Center who's there for Speacial Teams mostly (great PK Guy especially)
He's like if Eller and Gallagher had a hybrid clone made basically and a good solid replacement for Dvorak just as we'll be selling him off

Unless we get a Fantilli or Bedard its Roy , Kidney then everyone else behind Suzuki, Dach,Dvorak and Evans.


I appreciate the response and I feel bad shutting you down, but doesn't Roy play RW now in the Q and half that analysts are worried about his defensive game at the AHL-level? Why would he mutate into a Center at the NHL level?
1 août 2022 à 19 h 21
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Quoting: Anus_McLeod
I would agree but have seen the school of thought that they should cut and run to give Dach a serious go at 2C. Not the best idea if you ask me, but I can see some merit to it.


You don’t think they just traded the 13th overall for a 21yr old guy and aren’t going to try him at 2C? Personally I think Dach is a significant upgrade over Dvorak who is for all intents and purposes the same guy he was when he first broke into the league a 3C. I mean in seasons where he played at least 56 games he has a career High of 38pts and a career low of 31pts.
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1 août 2022 à 19 h 27
#16
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Quoting: Billy739

Landeskog-Statsny-Mckinnon spent 2 years together before Mckiinnon was ready
Then they sold Statsny high and based on Landerskog-Mckinnon's success together landed top UFA Iginla to join them


Not to quibble but Statsny walked for free after promising Sakic he would let COL match any offer he got, and then promptly signed with STL.
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1 août 2022 à 19 h 28
#17
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Quoting: jonh514
I appreciate the response and I feel bad shutting you down, but doesn't Roy play RW now in the Q and half that analysts are worried about his defensive game at the AHL-level? Why would he mutate into a Center at the NHL level?

Nope he plays 2nd Center and 1st RW depending on match ups
It happens on teams a lot when 1 player is doubling the rest of the teams offense

I seen it with Drouin and Mckinnon for example
Drouin played 2nd C with Darcy Ashley and Martin Frk beside him
But anytime they felt they could steamroll a team Drouin would shift to top RW beside Mckinnon


Danault was the same way playing Barbashev's LW
he was known for his Incredible Speed and Defense in Junior not faceoffs
1 août 2022 à 19 h 32
#18
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Quoting: Xqb15a
Not to quibble but Statsny walked for free after promising Sakic he would let COL match any offer he got, and then promptly signed with STL.


Shhappy it was Oreilly and Duchene that got the fortune's right right right
Statsny walked thats right

Point still stands about the development
even if its context went from "he was ready " to "he was thrown in the mix with solid veteran goal scoring support)
I guess it changes the tone a bit for Planned to ,Planned but had to react to so Shhappy lol
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1 août 2022 à 19 h 37
#19
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Quoting: Xqb15a
You don’t think they just traded the 13th overall for a 21yr old guy and aren’t going to try him at 2C? Personally I think Dach is a significant upgrade over Dvorak who is for all intents and purposes the same guy he was when he first broke into the league a 3C. I mean in seasons where he played at least 56 games he has a career High of 38pts and a career low of 31pts.


That may be what they intend, but I have been saying for over a year that Dach needs to play wing for a bit and then potentially transition back when he's ready. I'm not changing that opinion just because he's on a new team or how much they paid for him.
1 août 2022 à 19 h 40
#20
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Quoting: Xqb15a
You don’t think they just traded the 13th overall for a 21yr old guy and aren’t going to try him at 2C? Personally I think Dach is a significant upgrade over Dvorak who is for all intents and purposes the same guy he was when he first broke into the league a 3C. I mean in seasons where he played at least 56 games he has a career High of 38pts and a career low of 31pts.


Why is that a bad thing ?
If your coach knows how to play the Center like MSL they get 4 goals 14 assists for 18 pts in 22 games with 57% win rate fresh of IR under a brand new coach.
Way i look at it is over the years Bulk Faceoff Centers like Dvorak have gotten teams paid big at the TDL
Wheter its Vermette, Hanzal , Stasny (to WPG) or Plekanec's getting a 2nd rounder and 2 prospects flipped to acquire Kulak.
Plekanec's was coming off his career worst barely a 4th line Centers option but his Faceoffs were still very strong
Because it was basiclaly just him and Hanzal with that kinda faceoff win rate he made bank

Dvorak more importantly combine's with Suzuki to take rought 65-68% of MTL faceoff's
Evans is comfortable taking up to 25% before having a negative win rate
That means Dach's basically just gotta win OZ Faceoffs which are the easiest .
If Dach gets good at Faceoffs we can look at moving Dvorak

But there's more value in moving Evans then Dvorak as it stands
1 août 2022 à 19 h 42
#21
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Quoting: Anus_McLeod
That may be what they intend, but I have been saying for over a year that Dach needs to play wing for a bit and then potentially transition back when he's ready. I'm not changing that opinion just because he's on a new team or how much they paid for him.


He was on CHI
I'd hardly call that a team the past few years

Dach is fine in MSL system under a coach that plays Chess Pieces like Chess Pieces
TBH he woulda been fine in CHI to as Richardson does the same
1 août 2022 à 21 h 18
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Quoting: jonh514
Dissenting opinion here, but the Habs should take this deal because it helps them lose now.

1) Dach at 2C will produce less than Dvorak which means they get a better shot at Bedard/Fantilli
2) Habs take care of their cap space problem... Cap space is very valuable right now... We'd have to give away a 2nd and maybe more to move Hoffman for example
3) 2024 pick from Colorado is better than a 2023 pick from Colorado because they are gonna be good again this year but with the cap crunch who knows what happens when they have to resign Mac, Byram, Newhook in the same offseason


Colorado is going nowhere near Dvorak and that 3 year, 4.45M cap hit precisely for the reason you just said. Contracts for MacKinnon, Byram and Newhook after this season.
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1 août 2022 à 21 h 33
#23
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Quoting: BruinsCharlies
Colorado is going nowhere near Dvorak and that 3 year, 4.45M cap hit precisely for the reason you just said. Contracts for MacKinnon, Byram and Newhook after this season.


I just work with what I'm given. Posters here often ignore the truth, cap space is more valuable than assets (2nd round picks and B-level prospects) for the next few offseasons
1 août 2022 à 22 h 8
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Quoting: BruinsCharlies
Colorado is going nowhere near Dvorak and that 3 year, 4.45M cap hit precisely for the reason you just said. Contracts for MacKinnon, Byram and Newhook after this season.


Quoting: jonh514
I just work with what I'm given. Posters here often ignore the truth, cap space is more valuable than assets (2nd round picks and B-level prospects) for the next few offseasons


They can afford that. And if they can't then they either flip him or move one of their defensemen in the next offseason. They aren't going to sit on cap space in a year they're trying to win.
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2 août 2022 à 8 h 36
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Quoting: Anus_McLeod
They can afford that. And if they can't then they either flip him or move one of their defensemen in the next offseason. They aren't going to sit on cap space in a year they're trying to win.


I think 1 year of Dvorak helps them and either he explodes and they consider retaining him, or he does more or less what he does every season and they flip him for another late 1st or an asset or even cap space.

Dvorak could have a 60pts season on the Avs... The team is so good you get points through osmosis
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