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I do not understand Sabres fans

Créé par: jonh514
Équipe: 2022-23 Sabres de Buffalo
Date de création initiale: 28 juill. 2022
Publié: 28 juill. 2022
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
I really don't understand Sabres fans. They have almost no Elite assets other than their 2 LD but refuse to trade one of Power or Dahlin to balance their team.

How many years do you want to spend rebuilding?! Tage seems to have figured out how to use his body and skill effectively. Skinner isn't getting any younger. Mittelstadt and Krebs are not gonna develop into Elite centers... You can't build a team around a core of LD only... The smart play is to trade Power for an Elite Center, Winger, or Goalie and try to get some other pieces at the same time.
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28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 30
#1
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Or here me out, dahlin plays the right side like he did at the end of last year and before the NHL. Also, you have no clue what you're talking about with our young offensive players and prospects. This is completely wrong and you are just coming off as idiotic
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28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 30
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I don't think I am opposed to trading Power, obviously trading a player like that seems stupid but it depends on what is going to be coming back. I am opposed to trading Power now, wait a year or 2. When he isn't on a ELC.
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28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 35
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
I don't think I am opposed to trading Power, obviously trading a player like that seems stupid but it depends on what is going to be coming back. I am opposed to trading Power now, wait a year or 2. When he isn't on a ELC.


Kyle Connor is a 48 goal 94 point scorer who is 25 years old. He is the real deal. Hellebuyck is the second best goalie in the game right now in my opinion. What's wrong with this return. Buffalo would become a force in the east and make a deep playoff run...
28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 39
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I think Buffalo just needs to stay the course. Lots of youth coming up in next couple years can let some contracts burn off the books during that time and start becoming more aggressive in free agency problems will solve themselves. Need to keep it in perspective they just restarted the rebuild last year.
28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 41
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Quoting: wojme
Or here me out, dahlin plays the right side like he did at the end of last year and before the NHL. Also, you have no clue what you're talking about with our young offensive players and prospects. This is completely wrong and you are just coming off as idiotic


Ok... But 2 great defensemen does not win cups. You need a Goalie, a Winger, a Center, and a Defenceman who all have a high WAR based on 14 of the last 15 years. There is a blueprint for a cup contender and it does not start with 2 Elite defencemen...
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28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 44
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Quoting: Timmah007
I think Buffalo just needs to stay the course. Lots of youth coming up in next couple years can let some contracts burn off the books during that time and start becoming more aggressive in free agency problems will solve themselves. Need to keep it in perspective they just restarted the rebuild last year.


Hasn't it kinda been going on for 10-11 seasons?

The current team is too good for a bottom 5 and too bad to make the playoffs and go deep.
28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 49
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Quoting: jonh514
Ok... But 2 great defensemen does not win cups. You need a Goalie, a Winger, a Center, and a Defenceman who all have a high GMVA based on 14 of the last 15 years. There is a blueprint for a cup contender and it does not start with 2 Elite defencemen...
Quoting: jonh514
Kyle Connor is a 48 goal 94 point scorer who is 25 years old. He is the real deal. Hellebuyck is the second best goalie in the game right now in my opinion. What's wrong with this return. Buffalo would become a force in the east and make a deep playoff run...


This Sabres team is great Adding those 2 players doesn't make them contenders automatically. Probably gets them close though...again though I would stay the course and wait another year so our young guys can develop and we actually know what they are and what they can become and then make a move in the 22-23 offseason or TDL to try and win a cup. I also remember that the last team to win BACK to BACK cups had no great RD's and 3 Elite LDs. Hedman - McDonough - Sergachev.

All these players could be high GSVA players and great role players.
Goalie: Levi - Portillo - UPL (Check)
Winger: Quinn, Peterka, Tuch, Krebs, Olofsson, Skinner(last season and first season) Any Center who doesn't make it into our top 3 can slide to wing.
Center: Thompson, Cozens, Savoie, Ostlund, Kulich, Mittelstadt.
Defensemen: Dahlin, Power, Samuelsson, Johnson.
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28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 49
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Quoting: jonh514
Hasn't it kinda been going on for 10-11 seasons?

The current team is too good for a bottom 5 and too bad to make the playoffs and go deep.


Adams is doing just fine. This us 2nd full year. You are a Habs fan. How fun is that?! Sabres and Adams will stay the course and build a TB/Col type team. Adams and Granato doing just fine. Just worry about how Montreal can screw up their rebuild
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28 juill. 2022 à 7 h 51
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Quoting: jonh514
Ok... But 2 great defensemen does not win cups. You need a Goalie, a Winger, a Center, and a Defenceman who all have a high WAR based on 14 of the last 15 years. There is a blueprint for a cup contender and it does not start with 2 Elite defencemen...


It starts with multiple potentially elite prospects in every position which the sabres have (cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Savoie, ostlund, kulich, UPL, Levi, Portillo) You can say "the sabres have been in dump for years, it's time to do something", but this is a different organization than it was 3/4 years ago. Stop saying having two elite dmen is a bad thing because it clearly isn't. Sabres have tried to excel a rebuild with gmtm and it ruined the team in the long run. Sabres should be fine with staying the path they are on currently since they were one of the better teams in the second half of last year and are just going to add talent to the team this year.
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28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 8
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
This Sabres team is great Adding those 2 players doesn't make them contenders automatically. Probably gets them close though...again though I would stay the course and wait another year so our young guys can develop and we actually know what they are and what they can become and then make a move in the 22-23 offseason or TDL to try and win a cup. I also remember that the last team to win BACK to BACK cups had no great RD's and 3 Elite LDs. Hedman - McDonough - Sergachev.

All these players could be high GSVA players and great role players.
Goalie: Levi - Portillo - UPL (Check)
Winger: Quinn, Peterka, Tuch, Krebs, Olofsson, Skinner(last season and first season) Any Center who doesn't make it into our top 3 can slide to wing.
Center: Thompson, Cozens, Savoie, Ostlund, Kulich, Mittelstadt.
Defensemen: Dahlin, Power, Samuelsson, Johnson.


GSVA or WAR not GMVA - me talking to my fat fingers

Alright. I think the stats disagree on a number of those players as top 6 players on a contending team, buts let's agree to disagree.

I believe the situation being what it is, Buffalo can truly consider an accelerated rebuild if a team like the Jets are looking to blow things up. This does not happen every year and the Jets have exactly the assets to complement the Sabres.

I also believe the Sabres will be middle of the pack for the next 2 years so won't draft high and won't make the playoffs unless the go one way I'd the other.

I love Tage Thompson and I would build a team around him. If Dahlin or Power are the price of being truly competitive for the next 10 years around Tage and the Elite D you keep, it is what it is.
28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 14
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Quoting: jonh514
Hasn't it kinda been going on for 10-11 seasons?

The current team is too good for a bottom 5 and too bad to make the playoffs and go deep.


Our current team is likely the youngest team in the league. We just started over LAST YEAR when we traded eichel, Reinhart and ristolainen.

We have TONS of high end assets including Jack Quinn, JJ Peterka, Matthew Savoie, Devin Levi and so on and they have played a combined 4 NHL games. Even Power has only played EIGHT NHL games.

What former GMs screwed up has no basis on what we do moving forward.
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28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 16
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Quoting: wojme
It starts with multiple potentially elite prospects in every position which the sabres have (cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Savoie, ostlund, kulich, UPL, Levi, Portillo) You can say "the sabres have been in dump for years, it's time to do something", but this is a different organization than it was 3/4 years ago. Stop saying having two elite dmen is a bad thing because it clearly isn't. Sabres have tried to excel a rebuild with gmtm and it ruined the team in the long run. Sabres should be fine with staying the path they are on currently since they were one of the better teams in the second half of last year and are just going to add talent to the team this year.


I can say whatever I believe. You can only get other Elite players by drafting them or by trading Elite players for them.

I believe you need 4 Elite players to win a cup and Buffalo have 3. TT at center, and Dahlin & Power but no one who is close to NHL-ready at Goalie or Wing. If you can trade one of your Elites for your missing pieces it's probably worth doing.
28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 22
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Quoting: jonh514
I can say whatever I believe. You can only get other Elite players by drafting them or by trading Elite players for them.

I believe you need 4 Elite players to win a cup and Buffalo have 3. TT at center, and Dahlin & Power but no one who is close to NHL-ready at Goalie or Wing. If you can trade one of your Elites for your missing pieces it's probably worth doing.


they. are. not. in. win. now. mode. these elite pieces are the collection of quinn peterka krebs savoie ostlund upl levi and cozens even. these are the pieces in which they will develop to make a good window for their eventual golden years. you dont need an nhl ready wing or goalie, you develop your superstar prospects till they are nhl ready. your not a buffalo fan, im not a buffalo fan, but i do know you are a bozo
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28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 24
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Quoting: littlejerryseinfeld
Our current team is likely the youngest team in the league. We just started over LAST YEAR when we traded eichel, Reinhart and ristolainen.

We have TONS of high end assets including Jack Quinn, JJ Peterka, Matthew Savoie, Devin Levi and so on and they have played a combined 4 NHL games. Even Power has only played EIGHT NHL games.

What former GMs screwed up has no basis on what we do moving forward.


Yes... Buffalo have a great young team but they are unbalanced. It's not as if I'm suggesting trading Power for a bag of pucks. I am suggesting a hockey trade for a Vezina Goalie and a 40 goal ppg+ winger to comment your young team as well as a RD to play in your top 4. The team is far more balanced and in my opinion can compete for a cup if TT and Cozens play a little better than they did last year.
28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 27
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Quoting: jonh514
Yes... Buffalo have a great young team but they are unbalanced. It's not as if I'm suggesting trading Power for a bag of pucks. I am suggesting a hockey trade for a Vezina Goalie and a 40 goal ppg+ winger to comment your young team as well as a RD to play in your top 4. The team is far more balanced and in my opinion can compete for a cup if TT and Cozens play a little better than they did last year.


We are not unbalanced.

Thank you for your concern though
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28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 29
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Quoting: dickie_boon
they. are. not. in. win. now. mode. these elite pieces are the collection of quinn peterka krebs savoie ostlund upl levi and cozens even. these are the pieces in which they will develop to make a good window for their eventual golden years. you dont need an nhl ready wing or goalie, you develop your superstar prospects till they are nhl ready. your not a buffalo fan, im not a buffalo fan, but i do know you are a bozo


I'm a hockey fan and I am actually a huge fan of the Sabres though it's a love-hate relationship. Tage Thompson is my favorite young Center in the game. I think they can compete sooner is all I'm saying.

I don't know you but I don't think stimulating a discussion about when a team is ready to compete makes me a Bozo. This is literally a discussion forum. Who made you the authority on what opinions are valid?
28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 36
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Quoting: jonh514
I'm a hockey fan and I am actually a huge fan of the Sabres though it's a love-hate relationship. Tage Thompson is my favorite young Center in the game. I think they can compete sooner is all I'm saying.

I don't know you but I don't think stimulating a discussion about when a team is ready to compete makes me a Bozo. This is literally a discussion forum. Who made you the authority on what opinions are valid?


but why? countless times doing stuff like this to "compete sooner" leads to mediocrity and then collapse. has this not been shown by buffalo in the past? they have great great prospects, why not be somewhat in the bedard/michkov race? they just need to be patient and doing stuff like this screws it up. what if the canadiens traded slafkovsky to for this package? would it make any sense whatsoever? not at all, same with buffalo
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28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 49
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Quoting: dickie_boon
but why? countless times doing stuff like this to "compete sooner" leads to mediocrity and then collapse. has this not been shown by buffalo in the past? they have great great prospects, why not be somewhat in the bedard/michkov race? they just need to be patient and doing stuff like this screws it up. what if the canadiens traded slafkovsky to for this package? would it make any sense whatsoever? not at all, same with buffalo


Canadiens are like 2-3 years behind Buffalo. If Buffalo wants a real shot at Bedard/Fantilli/Michkov they will need to lose a few players to injury or trade. The team is so much better than you are giving them credit for, especially if TT and Cozens show significant improvement over last season.

Plus the team has a few assets who are made for the playoffs like Tuch. He was the best forward in the playoffs for VGK 2 years in a row. He kinda sucks in the regular season to be honest (a lot like Anderson).

This team is gonna be in Cap hell if all these prospects want contracts in the same years.

Plus... It's not every team that has assets that would make the Jets consider trading Connor. He's a top 5 LW in the league.
28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 52
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Quoting: jonh514
Hasn't it kinda been going on for 10-11 seasons?

The current team is too good for a bottom 5 and too bad to make the playoffs and go deep.


A lot of Sabres fans are very cautious about trying to make the big moves too early in a rebuild, and rightfully so with Tim Murray doing just that, trading for ROR, Evander Kane, and Lehner when we weren’t ready to compete yet. KA (and a segment of the fan base) appears to be taking the long view, a view where playoff appearances don’t matter, only cups do, and so he is building from the ground up to make the dream of a cup a reality. Long term, our defense without Power projects to be worse than our forwards. I think what KA is building is a 4 lines deep forward group. They may not have the star power of a typical cup team, but the bones are there to build an average first line, a high end second line, and a 3rd line made of 2nd line calibre guys. You put that with an elite defense with 2 stars, and hopefully elite goaltending (I’m a strong believer in Devon Levi, and one of Portillo/UPL/Leinonen should be a strong backup) and you’d have a cup contender. And the Sabres have some forwards in the system that could be elite yet. If Thompson repeats, he is a star and will be flirting with elite status. Quinn just had the best AHL rookie season of the past 30 years and JJP had the best U20 AHL season of the past 30 years. Cozens still has star potential. Savoie could end up a star. Unlikely all of these guys hit their ceilings, but if 2-3 do, that could put us on the path to a cup.

With the way the Sabres are being built, if we do end up with 4 strong lines, having one of Power or Dahlin on the ice at almost all times in the playoffs will make them very hard to beat. The 2 stars on defense could be what sets us apart from other contenders in the playoffs, and it’s too early to give up on that IMO.
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28 juill. 2022 à 8 h 57
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Quoting: jonh514
I can say whatever I believe. You can only get other Elite players by drafting them or by trading Elite players for them.

I believe you need 4 Elite players to win a cup and Buffalo have 3. TT at center, and Dahlin & Power but no one who is close to NHL-ready at Goalie or Wing. If you can trade one of your Elites for your missing pieces it's probably worth doing.


Couple of issues I have with that line of thinking.

1. The Sabres have a ton of high end talent at forward, but many of them are also a year or 2 younger than the defensive core. Believe it or not this is actually a good thing for the Sabres because most forwards hit their peaks at a younger age than Dmen. Of the Sabres top 4 D, Joker is the oldest one at 23, that is an extremely young top 4.

2. Helly is a great goalie, but he only has 2 years left on his deal. He's not a RFA after, he's a UFA and that presents risk. In addition to that Buffalo still has a lot of young talent that needs to develop. Adding Connor is great, and really boosts the offense, but they still need growth out of Cozens, Mittelstadt, Krebs, Asplund, Quinn, and Peterka. If those players don't show more growth this season then forget being contenders, they'd be lucky to push for the playoffs even with adding Connor and Helly.

Buffalo tried to shortcut a rebuild in 2015, and we all saw how that worked out. Many Sabres fans do not want to live through that again, and rightfully so. I'll also add, almost every team that has won the cup since the lock-out has had a Norris caliber Dman. Makar, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Carlsson, Letang, Keith, Doughty. Having both Dahlin and Power gives them a far better shot at one of them becoming that tier of Dman since neither are there yet.
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28 juill. 2022 à 9 h 3
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Quoting: sabresparaavida
A lot of Sabres fans are very cautious about trying to make the big moves too early in a rebuild, and rightfully so with Tim Murray doing just that, trading for ROR, Evander Kane, and Lehner when we weren’t ready to compete yet. KA (and a segment of the fan base) appears to be taking the long view, a view where playoff appearances don’t matter, only cups do, and so he is building from the ground up to make the dream of a cup a reality. Long term, our defense without Power projects to be worse than our forwards. I think what KA is building is a 4 lines deep forward group. They may not have the star power of a typical cup team, but the bones are there to build an average first line, a high end second line, and a 3rd line made of 2nd line calibre guys. You put that with an elite defense with 2 stars, and hopefully elite goaltending (I’m a strong believer in Devon Levi, and one of Portillo/UPL/Leinonen should be a strong backup) and you’d have a cup contender. And the Sabres have some forwards in the system that could be elite yet. If Thompson repeats, he is a star and will be flirting with elite status. Quinn just had the best AHL rookie season of the past 30 years and JJP had the best U20 AHL season of the past 30 years. Cozens still has star potential. Savoie could end up a star. Unlikely all of these guys hit their ceilings, but if 2-3 do, that could put us on the path to a cup.

With the way the Sabres are being built, if we do end up with 4 strong lines, having one of Power or Dahlin on the ice at almost all times in the playoffs will make them very hard to beat. The 2 stars on defense could be what sets us apart from other contenders in the playoffs, and it’s too early to give up on that IMO.


I appreciate your response. If it's not clear from my previous posts I want the Sabres to challenge for a cup.

The team you are describing is a lot like the Blues when they won a few years ago. It was not a prototypical cup winning team but their depth and a little puck luck helped them to win a cup. All I am saying, and the Athletic has a ton of good content on this, in 14 of the past 15 seasons the cup winner has had a specific mold and the Sabres are building in a different direction than that mold.

Time will tell, but I hope the Habs in their rebuild do it by the numbers.
28 juill. 2022 à 9 h 9
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Modifié 28 juill. 2022 à 9 h 16
Quoting: jonh514
I appreciate your response. If it's not clear from my previous posts I want the Sabres to challenge for a cup.

The team you are describing is a lot like the Blues when they won a few years ago. It was not a prototypical cup winning team but their depth and a little puck luck helped them to win a cup. All I am saying, and the Athletic has a ton of good content on this, in 14 of the past 15 seasons the cup winner has had a specific mold and the Sabres are building in a different direction than that mold.

Time will tell, but I hope the Habs in their rebuild do it by the numbers.


Yeah, I envision the future of this team (if things go well), to be somewhere between the blues cup team, and the Nashville cup finalist team a handful of years back. I think if you put That Blues forward group with Nashvilles defense, that is a team that could compete year in year out. I also think Levi will be better than Binnington long term which would help. (Not saying Levi’s career will be at a higher level than Binnington in that cup year, but will have more sustained success as a top 10 goalie).

The other issue with this, is that the Sabres have arguably the deepest/best forward prospect group in the NHL, while their defensive prospects are much more of a ? outside of Power.
They have young NHL forwards in Tage Thompson, Asplund, Cozens, Mitts, and Krebs, with a prospect group of Savoie, Quinn, JJP, Kulich, Ostlund, Neuchev, Kisakov, Poltapov, Bloom, Nadeau, and some more that could end up in the NHL. On defense, they have the young NHL guys of Dahlin, Samuelson, and Joki, and prospects Power and Johnson, but beyond that it’s more like shots in the dark with Komarov, Lindgren and Lycasen being the only ones with any chance at the NHL. The earliest those guys were picked was the 4th round.
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28 juill. 2022 à 9 h 12
#23
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Quoting: jonh514
Yes... Buffalo have a great young team but they are unbalanced. It's not as if I'm suggesting trading Power for a bag of pucks. I am suggesting a hockey trade for a Vezina Goalie and a 40 goal ppg+ winger to comment your young team as well as a RD to play in your top 4. The team is far more balanced and in my opinion can compete for a cup if TT and Cozens play a little better than they did last year.


I think the sabres still need the elite center- thompson doubled his career shooting percentage last year, and the 30 assists hardly screams playmaker. Not that he's bad, but realistically let's see how he does this year- probably much more reasonable to have him in the middle 6 if it's on a playoff team. Matching him up against barkov, McDavid, Matthew's, crosby- kinda feels like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I'm interested in your idea of how to build a winner, it's a copycat league after all, however goalie and winger are the least valuable of the 4 positions in my opinion, and the sabres future at wing looks very bright, although some of the strength likely will be in the overall depth at the position. I have absolutely no interest in moving a high value asset for a goalie, and we have two of wheelers top ten goalie prospects. Levi seems like the guy we are going all in on, literally the worst thing anybody can come up with to say about him is that he's only 6 feet tall.
28 juill. 2022 à 9 h 15
#24
Sabresguy1897
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This is kind of hilarious coming from a team whos top 2 centers both want out of the org, their captain is a terrible person, their best prospect wouldnt crack the sabres top 10, they have an againg d core, their goalie is ufa in 1 year, their gm stood pat while the video coach sexually assualted a player, their coach is 88 years old and hometown hero refused the organization. Sure kyle conner is good but why on earth would the sabres trade a 19 year old dman with elite potential who they have 7 years of team control over?
wojme a aimé ceci.
28 juill. 2022 à 9 h 15
#25
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Quoting: Funksoljah
Couple of issues I have with that line of thinking.

1. The Sabres have a ton of high end talent at forward, but many of them are also a year or 2 younger than the defensive core. Believe it or not this is actually a good thing for the Sabres because most forwards hit their peaks at a younger age than Dmen. Of the Sabres top 4 D, Joker is the oldest one at 23, that is an extremely young top 4.

2. Helly is a great goalie, but he only has 2 years left on his deal. He's not a RFA after, he's a UFA and that presents risk. In addition to that Buffalo still has a lot of young talent that needs to develop. Adding Connor is great, and really boosts the offense, but they still need growth out of Cozens, Mittelstadt, Krebs, Asplund, Quinn, and Peterka. If those players don't show more growth this season then forget being contenders, they'd be lucky to push for the playoffs even with adding Connor and Helly.

Buffalo tried to shortcut a rebuild in 2015, and we all saw how that worked out. Many Sabres fans do not want to live through that again, and rightfully so. I'll also add, almost every team that has won the cup since the lock-out has had a Norris caliber Dman. Makar, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Carlsson, Letang, Keith, Doughty. Having both Dahlin and Power gives them a far better shot at one of them becoming that tier of Dman since neither are there yet.


The truth is that in any given season some of your players will play better and some will play worse. I think Mittelstadt and Krebs are unfortunately gonna be bottom 6 players on a cup contending team. That's not a bad thing to have, but hoping that they take huge leaps forward is ... Wishful thinking at this point. Krebs may break the top 6 on the wing.

I believe Cozens & TT can be a good top 6 tandem, but... If you can have a Scheifele back by trading Cozens that's a good option because you are getting a 70-80 pts center back and Cozens would be lucky to become that.

No team competes with 100% of players they drafted themselves.
 
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