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Reported Rejected Trades For Tkachuk

Créé par: Cardiak
Équipe: 2022-23 Flames de Calgary
Date de création initiale: 19 juill. 2022
Publié: 19 juill. 2022
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Transactions
1.
CGY
  1. Krug, Torey
  2. Kyrou, Jordan
  3. Choix de 1e ronde en 2023 (STL)
STL
  1. Tkachuk, Matthew [Droits de RFA]
Détails additionnels:
This was rejected
2.
CGY
  1. Choix de 1e ronde en 2023 (NJD)
Détails additionnels:
Package reportedly included 2nd OA. Don’t know what else was included but I’d imagine at least another first
NJD
    Tkachuk
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    19 juill. 2022 à 16 h 38
    #26
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    Quoting: A_K
    I disagree. CGY is losing leverage quickly, especially if the smoke that MT prefers to go to STL becomes fire. We're on the same trajectory as Trouba leaving WPG for NYR. All they gave up was a 20oa and a roster replacement. Blues should be leaving Kyrou out of the talks, a core player and one of the few guys with some speed in a fast league.


    Tkachuk is coming off of a 104 point 40+ goal season as a power forward with a very strong defensive game. He is the premier power forward for the modern day NHL. If you are trading for that, no piece should be off limits. The fact that trouba got 20 OA and a roster filled doesn’t mean anything imo, this is the most valuable player to enter the trade market since eichel, I would go as far as to say more valuable than eichel and being the most valuable player since prime karlsson was on the market. Eichel fetched a top 6 roster player with term, a top prospect, a first and a second. The flames rejecting this package shows tkachuk is more valuable and they want karlsson return. Obviously the Karlsson trade was seen as a fleece for San Jose at the time but I see Calgary wanting similar value in the players for tkachuk and having them be more bonafide
    19 juill. 2022 à 16 h 39
    #27
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    Quoting: Chopper02
    Is there a tweet about this?


    I believe it was in one of his articles in the athletic or on a podcast. I saw no tweet about it but I heard reports he said this
    19 juill. 2022 à 16 h 50
    #28
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    Tkachuk is coming off of a 104 point 40+ goal season as a power forward with a very strong defensive game. He is the premier power forward for the modern day NHL. If you are trading for that, no piece should be off limits. The fact that trouba got 20 OA and a roster filled doesn’t mean anything imo, this is the most valuable player to enter the trade market since eichel, I would go as far as to say more valuable than eichel and being the most valuable player since prime karlsson was on the market. Eichel fetched a top 6 roster player with term, a top prospect, a first and a second. The flames rejecting this package shows tkachuk is more valuable and they want karlsson return. Obviously the Karlsson trade was seen as a fleece for San Jose at the time but I see Calgary wanting similar value in the players for tkachuk and having them be more bonafide


    Idk, leverage is a very real thing that has little to do with raw player value. Tkachuk had an amazing season, but if he tells CGY that he isn't signing for more than 1 year, they will trade him. And if they trade him, the team acquiring him will need assurance that he will sign long term. And if there is only one team that gets that assurance, there is no reason for that team to give up a core guy like Kyrou. If Tkachuk leaves the door open for a few teams, then his price will obviously be higher, but IMO the Blues could pull it off without involving Kyrou.
    19 juill. 2022 à 16 h 54
    #29
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    I believe it was in one of his articles in the athletic or on a podcast. I saw no tweet about it but I heard reports he said this


    Not trying to be rude but if you're going to throw around what was rejected or not you gotta have some more actionable stuff to back it up. An article reference, a link to a tweet from JR, anything. An NHL rumor instagram report that an insider said that they heard something is like third degree of separation at best from the decision makers involved with executing on that rumor.

    Quoting: noted
    If they trade for him - and the smoke is now a fire - they are going to trade Kyrou plus for him. You can deny it all you want but don’t say I didn’t say I told you so…


    Quoting: noted
    Every analyst that talks about this that knows way more than you or me, starts with Kyrou, then adds two of Perrunovich/Neighbors/Bolduc/1st rd picks. Bolduc is the one guy out of all that that I prefer to keep. We will see - and maybe sooner than later


    Every analyst is also not attuned to how the Blues value Kyrou or Tkachuk, or how the Flames do. The national guys have some good insight but their sources are far and wide. If Friedman or whoever poses to an eastern conference executive and that executive says "I think it will cost Kyrou" like that person is not actually involved with either team or really the situation at all. I don't think the Blues are above trading Kyrou but if Tkachuk is saying "I'm going to test the market in a year unless I go to my preferred destination of St. Louis" well suddenly the math changes. Is New Jersey going to give up Alexander Holtz for a guy who is better but might leave in a year? Probably not, and now the price goes down. Tkachuk being a year away from UFA and not yet having a contract is a big wild card. There is a wide wide range of returns he could get because there's so many variables that we just do not know the details of. Maybe it will cost Kyrou- maybe it's even likely to cost Kyrou- but there is absolutely a scenario where it does not.
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 0
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    Quoting: TheEarthmaster
    Not trying to be rude but if you're going to throw around what was rejected or not you gotta have some more actionable stuff to back it up. An article reference, a link to a tweet from JR, anything. An NHL rumor instagram report that an insider said that they heard something is like third degree of separation at best from the decision makers involved with executing on that rumor.





    Every analyst is also not attuned to how the Blues value Kyrou or Tkachuk, or how the Flames do. The national guys have some good insight but their sources are far and wide. If Friedman or whoever poses to an eastern conference executive and that executive says "I think it will cost Kyrou" like that person is not actually involved with either team or really the situation at all. I don't think the Blues are above trading Kyrou but if Tkachuk is saying "I'm going to test the market in a year unless I go to my preferred destination of St. Louis" well suddenly the math changes. Is New Jersey going to give up Alexander Holtz for a guy who is better but might leave in a year? Probably not, and now the price goes down. Tkachuk being a year away from UFA and not yet having a contract is a big wild card. There is a wide wide range of returns he could get because there's so many variables that we just do not know the details of. Maybe it will cost Kyrou- maybe it's even likely to cost Kyrou- but there is absolutely a scenario where it does not.


    If the Blues trade for Tkachuk, an 8 year extension, is going to be announced with it. If the Blues trade for Tkachuk, I would bet a lot of money that Kyrou will be in the package. We'll see, but the Blues fans that think we are going to get him for cheap makes me laugh...
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 0
    #31
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    Quoting: A_K
    Idk, leverage is a very real thing that has little to do with raw player value. Tkachuk had an amazing season, but if he tells CGY that he isn't signing for more than 1 year, they will trade him. And if they trade him, the team acquiring him will need assurance that he will sign long term. And if there is only one team that gets that assurance, there is no reason for that team to give up a core guy like Kyrou. If Tkachuk leaves the door open for a few teams, then his price will obviously be higher, but IMO the Blues could pull it off without involving Kyrou.


    He’s the issue though. Eichel had leverage as well, he said he wouldn’t play unless he got that surgery and it became a pissing match which resulted in him not playing for them again. The fact that he got that return with leverage on the team shows how leverage isn’t as much as it actually seems unless the leverage is saying you are only playing for one team and then you can get said player at a heavy discount. I see where you are coming from but the flames likely keep him till they get a good deal for him to anywhere.
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 5
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    Quoting: TheEarthmaster
    Not trying to be rude but if you're going to throw around what was rejected or not you gotta have some more actionable stuff to back it up. An article reference, a link to a tweet from JR, anything. An NHL rumor instagram report that an insider said that they heard something is like third degree of separation at best from the decision makers involved with executing on that rumor


    I appreciate the class. I do see how third degree separation makes it questionable but IMO this is a very reliable source. Their @ is nhlbreakers on Instagram and you can see the post for yourself. Most of the time the account doesn’t site an exact location for a source but it can be found where the source they claim said it. I couldn’t find an exact location of where he said this but based on the accounts history and reputation I would say this is a reputable source. They are one of the bigger NHL news accounts on insta, as I said almost on par with puckempire and puckreport
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 11
    #33
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    He’s the issue though. Eichel had leverage as well, he said he wouldn’t play unless he got that surgery and it became a pissing match which resulted in him not playing for them again. The fact that he got that return with leverage on the team shows how leverage isn’t as much as it actually seems unless the leverage is saying you are only playing for one team and then you can get said player at a heavy discount. I see where you are coming from but the flames likely keep him till they get a good deal for him to anywhere.


    Ok, but if you're mirroring the Eichel trade you're talking about Saad + Neighbours + 1st + 2nd. There was no player in the Eichel package that scored at a better rate than Eichel (look up Kyrou's first 3 seasons vs Tkachuk's). Vegas didn't have to give up a core player IMO.
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 15
    #34
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    Quoting: noted
    If the Blues trade for Tkachuk, an 8 year extension, is going to be announced with it. If the Blues trade for Tkachuk, I would bet a lot of money that Kyrou will be in the package. We'll see, but the Blues fans that think we are going to get him for cheap makes me laugh...


    I mean the issue is that it's starting with Tarasenko regardless- either in a trade where he gets moved for futures or sending him+ to Calgary for Tkachuk itself. The Blues can't do that without making that move, they don't have the cap space, and Tarasenko has a lot of value himself. Maybe you could do it somehow by moving Krug but even then. I don't think I'm under the illusion that it's going to come cheap but the idea that Kyrou is the ONLY piece that could possibly make this work and that all roads lead through Kyrou going to Calgary I think is jumping the gun. Like the Blues cannot even make it work if that's the only major piece moving off the roster. And if there's more pieces that have to move off the roster, then the Tkachuk return becomes all the more fluid
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 22
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    He’s the issue though. Eichel had leverage as well, he said he wouldn’t play unless he got that surgery and it became a pissing match which resulted in him not playing for them again. The fact that he got that return with leverage on the team shows how leverage isn’t as much as it actually seems unless the leverage is saying you are only playing for one team and then you can get said player at a heavy discount. I see where you are coming from but the flames likely keep him till they get a good deal for him to anywhere.


    Quoting: A_K
    Ok, but if you're mirroring the Eichel trade you're talking about Saad + Neighbours + 1st + 2nd. There was no player in the Eichel package that scored at a better rate than Eichel (look up Kyrou's first 3 seasons vs Tkachuk's). Vegas didn't have to give up a core player IMO.


    The most comparable situation (more so than Trouba or Eichel or whoever) really is Mark Stone IMO. Tkachuk is younger and an RFA but with his contract situation (ie, proximity to UFA is a big factor in this one) and the AAV he will be fetching (either on a one year deal or a long term extension) you're looking at what happened when the Senators traded Stone. Stone said "I'm going to test the market unless you send me to Vegas" and all the other teams were like "well we like him but we're not going to pay much if we're only getting one playoff run out of him with no chance of extension" and Vegas got him for extremely cheap- basically just a good prospect, some fringe pieces and nothing else.

    Obviously it's going to take more than that to get Tkachuk- he's a younger player who is also probably better and is a pretty unique player in the league- but Trouba wasn't near on the same talent level as Tkachuk and Eichel was already locked in for five years. When I'm trying to compare leverage, the leverage Stone had over Ottawa is the one that it reminds me of the most.
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 22
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    Quoting: A_K
    Ok, but if you're mirroring the Eichel trade you're talking about Saad + Neighbours + 1st + 2nd. There was no player in the Eichel package that scored at a better rate than Eichel (look up Kyrou's first 3 seasons vs Tkachuk's). Vegas didn't have to give up a core player IMO.


    Tuch was a year older than eichel. Saad is 5 years older than tkachuk and put up half his points. For comparison, tuch but up .2 less PPG in his final season with vegas before the eichel trade. An ideal return for tkachuk based on the eichel trade is a player one year older than him that puts up 1.05 PPG because tkachuk had a 1.25ppg season. Kyrou is one year younger and had slightly less production than the ideal 1.05 in 1.02 PPG. That’s a solid return based on the eichel trade. Now throw in bolduc and a first and a second and you’re set. Yes I said bolduc because he was the 17th pick in a more recent draft aka what krebs was for vegas. Throw in the first and second and now you have a trade that actually mimics the eichel trade.
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 28
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    Quoting: TheEarthmaster
    The most comparable situation (more so than Trouba or Eichel or whoever) really is Mark Stone IMO. Tkachuk is younger and an RFA but with his contract situation (ie, proximity to UFA is a big factor in this one) and the AAV he will be fetching (either on a one year deal or a long term extension) you're looking at what happened when the Senators traded Stone. Stone said "I'm going to test the market unless you send me to Vegas" and all the other teams were like "well we like him but we're not going to pay much if we're only getting one playoff run out of him with no chance of extension" and Vegas got him for extremely cheap- basically just a good prospect, some fringe pieces and nothing else.

    Obviously it's going to take more than that to get Tkachuk- he's a younger player who is also probably better and is a pretty unique player in the league- but Trouba wasn't near on the same talent level as Tkachuk and Eichel was already locked in for five years. When I'm trying to compare leverage, the leverage Stone had over Ottawa is the one that it reminds me of the most.


    While a solid comparison, tkachuk isn’t saying trade me St. Louis and only St. Louis. It’s clear that a tkachuk deal also comes with an extension so that means he will likely have more term than the eichel deal. That’s the leverage I see, tkachuk is a solid stone/eichel situation hybrid. Stone was going to be a UFA as well so it’s not really a whole comparison because tkachuk is an RFA. If you read my last post I layed out a package similar to an eichel deal.
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 28
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    Tuch was a year older than eichel. Saad is 5 years older than tkachuk and put up half his points. For comparison, tuch but up .2 less PPG in his final season with vegas before the eichel trade. An ideal return for tkachuk based on the eichel trade is a player one year older than him that puts up 1.05 PPG because tkachuk had a 1.25ppg season. Kyrou is one year younger and had slightly less production than the ideal 1.05 in 1.02 PPG. That’s a solid return based on the eichel trade. Now throw in bolduc and a first and a second and you’re set. Yes I said bolduc because he was the 17th pick in a more recent draft aka what krebs was for vegas. Throw in the first and second and now you have a trade that actually mimics the eichel trade.


    Quoting: A_K
    Ok, but if you're mirroring the Eichel trade you're talking about Saad + Neighbours + 1st + 2nd. There was no player in the Eichel package that scored at a better rate than Eichel (look up Kyrou's first 3 seasons vs Tkachuk's). Vegas didn't have to give up a core player IMO.


    Tkachuk is going to return a hell of a lot more than Eichel did. He's 24, not coming off major neck surgery, and is going to be moved in the off-season when other teams can create space still. Oh and he's better....
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    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 39
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    Quoting: noted
    Tkachuk is going to return a hell of a lot more than Eichel did. He's 24, not coming off major neck surgery, and is going to be moved in the off-season when other teams can create space still. Oh and he's better....


    Exactly, this guy gets it
    19 juill. 2022 à 17 h 46
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    Tuch was a year older than eichel. Saad is 5 years older than tkachuk and put up half his points. For comparison, tuch but up .2 less PPG in his final season with vegas before the eichel trade. An ideal return for tkachuk based on the eichel trade is a player one year older than him that puts up 1.05 PPG because tkachuk had a 1.25ppg season. Kyrou is one year younger and had slightly less production than the ideal 1.05 in 1.02 PPG. That’s a solid return based on the eichel trade. Now throw in bolduc and a first and a second and you’re set. Yes I said bolduc because he was the 17th pick in a more recent draft aka what krebs was for vegas. Throw in the first and second and now you have a trade that actually mimics the eichel trade.


    I know it wasn't exact but Tuch = 50 pt winger, Krebs = quality prospect. I am aware that Saad isn't as valuable as Tuch, my fault for being overly vague.

    Kyrou + Bolduc + 1st + 2nd for Tkachuk when he is demanding a trade to his preferred destination would be dumb af. If that's what they ask for then I'd be fine walking away and watching their situation get worse. Not sure if people are just sleeping on Kyrou, or if it's a question of the impact of leverage, but I'm just laying out my thoughts. I figure that if the Blues can find a way to move Tarasenko, and then make an offer like Barbashev/Perunovich + Bolduc/Neighbours + 1st + 2nd, or something in that ballpark to start with, it could get legs when the arbitration date approaches. If they want Kyrou, it's a 1-for-1 in my opinion. Not saying he's an equal player, but the situation won't require the Blues to pay full value.
    19 juill. 2022 à 18 h 6
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    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    I believe it was in one of his articles in the athletic or on a podcast. I saw no tweet about it but I heard reports he said this


    He hinted at that package at 5 min and 20 sec mark of this interview so you are right at least for a rumor. Still don't think Krug would go to Calgary so not sure how that worked. Offer also would have been pre Johnny Hockey departure if it was at the draft

    https://www.101espn.com/episode/our-blues-insider-from-the-athletic-jeremy-rutherford-7/
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    19 juill. 2022 à 18 h 15
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    Quoting: noted
    He hinted at that package at 5 min and 20 sec mark of this interview so you are right at least for a rumor. Still don't think Krug would go to Calgary so not sure how that worked. Offer also would have been pre Johnny Hockey departure if it was at the draft

    https://www.101espn.com/episode/our-blues-insider-from-the-athletic-jeremy-rutherford-7/


    Thanks my G. @theearthmaster
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    19 juill. 2022 à 23 h 55
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    Modifié 20 juill. 2022 à 0 h 15
    Quoting: Hurricanes73
    Exactly, this guy gets it


    Quoting: noted
    Tkachuk is going to return a hell of a lot more than Eichel did. He's 24, not coming off major neck surgery, and is going to be moved in the off-season when other teams can create space still. Oh and he's better....


    I'm not really trying to split hairs on whether Tkachuk is better than Eichel but like if you think there's a definitive answer to that question you're being heavily heavily swayed by recency bias. Tkachuk had an unreal last season and everyone is over the moon but people forget how good Eichel was with like the most help he ever had being Jeff freaking Skinner. He was a point per game player in two seasons, 0.9ppg player in two other seasons before his injury. On Buffalo, playing center. Feels like an understatement to say that that's really really good. Tkachuk eclipsed (to put it lightly) the ppg barrier for the first time *this year* (although he was pretty close in 18-19). Eichel had a significant history of producing at an elite level before his injury that Tkachuk simply does not have. Like "Tkachuk is better than Eichel" is only a slam dunk take if we're talking about last season. Eichel was clearly the better player before that, and played the more premium position. Thus he returned a lot.

    Is Tkachuk better than Eichel now? Maybe. I think it's way too early to say. Is Eichel recovered from injury, on a good team (relative to Buffalo) for the first time in his career going to allow him to return to form? Is Tkachuk away from Gaudreau still going to keep up elite production, or will he struggle without him as he did the previous two seasons, only scoring 23 and 16 goals with pedestrian defensive metrics?

    We're all making assumptions on things we don't know with this. I'm assuming that STL is probably on a shortlist that Tkachuk has that he would sign an extension with and thus those teams have an edge in trade negotiations. That might not be true. It also might not be true that he'll net a huge return, because we've seen that when teams DO have that edge in negotiations, usually the return is smaller. (see Stone, but also see guys like Giroux to Florida and Fleury to Chicago) This is where Eichel having a contract is a double edged sword- teams had to accommodate the contract, but Eichel couldn't say "no" to any team, unless he wanted to sit out. Tkachuk- more or less -can, because he doesn't have a contract and if he does literally nothing will be given a contract that's 1 year long by an arbitor. It also might not be true that he'll be traded and extended, because we've seen guys that really want to go to free agency and won't extend their team controlled time longer than they have to (Copp, Panarin). Basically my point is that the variables are numerous and thus any number of outcomes are possible, including the ones that are being dismissed outright here.
    20 juill. 2022 à 9 h 3
    #44
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    Quoting: TheEarthmaster
    I'm not really trying to split hairs on whether Tkachuk is better than Eichel but like if you think there's a definitive answer to that question you're being heavily heavily swayed by recency bias. Tkachuk had an unreal last season and everyone is over the moon but people forget how good Eichel was with like the most help he ever had being Jeff freaking Skinner. He was a point per game player in two seasons, 0.9ppg player in two other seasons before his injury. On Buffalo, playing center. Feels like an understatement to say that that's really really good. Tkachuk eclipsed (to put it lightly) the ppg barrier for the first time *this year* (although he was pretty close in 18-19). Eichel had a significant history of producing at an elite level before his injury that Tkachuk simply does not have. Like "Tkachuk is better than Eichel" is only a slam dunk take if we're talking about last season. Eichel was clearly the better player before that, and played the more premium position. Thus he returned a lot.

    Is Tkachuk better than Eichel now? Maybe. I think it's way too early to say. Is Eichel recovered from injury, on a good team (relative to Buffalo) for the first time in his career going to allow him to return to form? Is Tkachuk away from Gaudreau still going to keep up elite production, or will he struggle without him as he did the previous two seasons, only scoring 23 and 16 goals with pedestrian defensive metrics?

    We're all making assumptions on things we don't know with this. I'm assuming that STL is probably on a shortlist that Tkachuk has that he would sign an extension with and thus those teams have an edge in trade negotiations. That might not be true. It also might not be true that he'll net a huge return, because we've seen that when teams DO have that edge in negotiations, usually the return is smaller. (see Stone, but also see guys like Giroux to Florida and Fleury to Chicago) This is where Eichel having a contract is a double edged sword- teams had to accommodate the contract, but Eichel couldn't say "no" to any team, unless he wanted to sit out. Tkachuk- more or less -can, because he doesn't have a contract and if he does literally nothing will be given a contract that's 1 year long by an arbitor. It also might not be true that he'll be traded and extended, because we've seen guys that really want to go to free agency and won't extend their team controlled time longer than they have to (Copp, Panarin). Basically my point is that the variables are numerous and thus any number of outcomes are possible, including the ones that are being dismissed outright here.


    Ok - we don't need to argue who is better. Tkachuk is healthy though and appears that he will be traded in the off-season not needing to have major neck surgery after he is traded. I am also 99% confident that a trade for Tkachuk will come with a contract extension just like FIala, Husso, etc. just happened recently. I could be wrong, but we'll find out soon enough.
     
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