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Fixing dubas mistake this is what he should do

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Équipe: 2022-23 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 12 juill. 2022
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12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 48
#1
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If CHI was willing to pay to take Murray, he wouldn't have ended up in TOR.

Mikheyev will get more from someone else, and you've let Sandin walk for nothing.
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12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 48
#2
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Delusional. Chicago took on Johnson last year because it included a 2nd rounder. They're not adding without an asset
1.7 for Mikheyev no chance Lance.
12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 50
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The Leafs can't afford to spend 8m on goaltending. If they had an elite tender+ solid backup for total then perhaps they would make concessions elsewhere but otherwise, it's not really worth it. Also, not sure if you just used him as a placeholder but Mikheyeve wants 4-5m. He probably gets 3m+.
12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 50
#4
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So Dubas should convince guys to take way less than reported, let sandin go for nothing ? And carry a 20 man roster all season. Great.
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12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 52
#5
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Quoting: Ritzy
If CHI was willing to pay to take Murray, he wouldn't have ended up in TOR.

Mikheyev will get more from someone else, and you've let Sandin walk for nothing.


Quoting: mmccRed198913
Delusional. Chicago took on Johnson last year because it included a 2nd rounder. They're not adding without an asset
1.7 for Mikheyev no chance Lance.


He's saying he should never have gotten him, there's no way you can realistically trade for a goalie then dump him the next day without getting fleeced and negative PR which would likely end up with a firing.
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12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 52
#6
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Doesn't Murray still have a no trade clause even after the trade? He blocked one trade and went somewhere he wanted to play
12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 54
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The Leafs just need to invest more in their depth, not goaltending so that they can outscore teams in the playoffs but also allow less.
12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 55
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Quoting: nchest
Doesn't Murray still have a no trade clause even after the trade? He blocked one trade and went somewhere he wanted to play


Yeah, he has the same protection. His point though is that he should enver have gotten him.
12 juill. 2022 à 10 h 56
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Quoting: GMBL
He's saying he should never have gotten him, there's no way you can realistically trade for a goalie then dump him the next day without getting fleeced and negative PR which would likely end up with a firing.


I think the Leafs will be fine but they won't win a round and Dubas will be gone. They'll load up everything for 2024 to try and convince Matthews to stay but ultimately lose him. Then luck into the playoffs in 2025 and then win a round haha
12 juill. 2022 à 11 h 1
#10
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Quoting: mmccRed198913
I think the Leafs will be fine but they won't win a round and Dubas will be gone. They'll load up everything for 2024 to try and convince Matthews to stay but ultimately lose him. Then luck into the playoffs in 2025 and then win a round haha


Dubas made a good choice for the team, even if it does end up costing him his job. They should be able to secure Matthews, they might need to give him the keys to the city to do it, but good thing they don't have a 5m+ goalie around lol.

I think if the Leafs do win the cup before Matthews is extended, they have a higher chance of losing him because he will have nothing to prove. So it wil lbe about paying him what he thinks he deserves. He might even test free agency regardless to see his options and go to whichever contender can make him the most money (and maybe it would be TOR) but he could test still especially if Nylander does the same.
12 juill. 2022 à 11 h 12
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Quoting: GMBL
The Leafs just need to invest more in their depth, not goaltending so that they can outscore teams in the playoffs but also allow less.


The Leafs don't need to score more, they need to keep the opponent from scoring more; that's been there problem the last 6 years
12 juill. 2022 à 11 h 58
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Quoting: ChiHawk
The Leafs don't need to score more, they need to keep the opponent from scoring more; that's been there problem the last 6 years


They also had a problem with overcoming leads, in the past it was because the stars weren't showing up, this year it was because they had no secondary scoring pretty much. If you noticed a lot of the times when someone is being ran out of Toronto due to playoff woes it's usually because of a single, sometimes a couple costly defensive mistakes or goaltending errors. If there's no room for error on that front, the solution is either they must score more or allow less, their last series was decided by 1 goal and the difference in GA and GF in the series was also 1 goal, so scoring more seems like the solution, and they are a highly offensive team so that matches their style. I'm not saying they need to throw away defense, they still need to defend. So it's about adding guys who can do both in their depth.

Their powerplay needs to also stop becoming ineffective near the end of the regular season and into the playoffs.
12 juill. 2022 à 12 h 57
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Quoting: GMBL
They also had a problem with overcoming leads, in the past it was because the stars weren't showing up, this year it was because they had no secondary scoring pretty much. If you noticed a lot of the times when someone is being ran out of Toronto due to playoff woes it's usually because of a single, sometimes a couple costly defensive mistakes or goaltending errors. If there's no room for error on that front, the solution is either they must score more or allow less, their last series was decided by 1 goal and the difference in GA and GF in the series was also 1 goal, so scoring more seems like the solution, and they are a highly offensive team so that matches their style. I'm not saying they need to throw away defense, they still need to defend. So it's about adding guys who can do both in their depth.

Their powerplay needs to also stop becoming ineffective near the end of the regular season and into the playoffs.


But what is missed in that, is the Leafs have traditionally allowed the opponent (win or lose) to run up the score board along with them. The Leafs do not struggle to put up goals, they struggle to keep the opponent out of the net.

A good comparison is the Lightning series against the Leafs and Avs; both were 6 game series.
Lightning =23 goals, Leafs = 19 goals (42 total goals)
Lightning = 15 goals, Avs = 20 goals (35 total goals)

You can see the Avs won the cup with only 1 more goal then the Leafs produced against the Lightning, but what they did differently, is didn't allow the Lightning to score. The Leafs allowed 8 more goals by the Lightning then the Avs did...that's the difference not the Avs scoring a lot more then the Leafs.

The Leafs organization has built the team around running up the scoreboard because it's exciting hockey to watch and fans love it, but it's failed 6 years in a row in the playoffs because at playoff time, winning teams focus on defense, physicality, and the goalie becomes the most important player on the ice. Some Leafs fans think more scoring is the solution, but in playoff hockey that is simply not the case.
12 juill. 2022 à 13 h 49
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Quoting: ChiHawk
But what is missed in that, is the Leafs have traditionally allowed the opponent (win or lose) to run up the score board along with them. The Leafs do not struggle to put up goals, they struggle to keep the opponent out of the net.

A good comparison is the Lightning series against the Leafs and Avs; both were 6 game series.
Lightning =23 goals, Leafs = 19 goals (42 total goals)
Lightning = 15 goals, Avs = 20 goals (35 total goals)

You can see the Avs won the cup with only 1 more goal then the Leafs produced against the Lightning, but what they did differently, is didn't allow the Lightning to score. The Leafs allowed 8 more goals by the Lightning then the Avs did...that's the difference not the Avs scoring a lot more then the Leafs.

The Leafs organization has built the team around running up the scoreboard because it's exciting hockey to watch and fans love it, but it's failed 6 years in a row in the playoffs because at playoff time, winning teams focus on defense, physicality, and the goalie becomes the most important player on the ice. Some Leafs fans think more scoring is the solution, but in playoff hockey that is simply not the case.


TB and COL had a lot of defensive games that opened up (and even Col against Edm), and some that didn't.

TB was suffocating teams with team defense, while Col did it by having possession and pounding away in the OZ. COL might not have scored a lot in some games but just look at the shot totals they had. Of course both teams had tons of guys blocking shots and playing solid defense too but looking at it from a team perspective I think TB just slowed down other teams while COL was just to fast.

I think Toronto is a team better suited to defending through offense like they do in the season. They do need any line to be able to score, instead of getting scored on.

That being said both TB and COL had a ton of PP opportunities throughout the entire playoffs.
12 juill. 2022 à 14 h 5
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Quoting: GMBL
I think Toronto is a team better suited to defending through offense like they do in the season.


This is exactly why they have 6 first series post season losses in a row.

Colorado had very good possession but that all started with their defenders being able to steal pucks, create turnovers and transition the zone and with speed. Their defense is night and day better then the Leafs. The bottom line, outgunning the team in a scoreboard run-up doesn't work in playoff hockey but it's entertaining and that's how the Leafs have built themselves for entertainment during the regular season. If you look at the vast majority of cup winners in the cap era, they have all won through great defense and goal tending. Chicago, Pitsburgh, Tampa, Colorado, St Louis, etc. You only need to score 1 goal to a win a game if you have great defense and goaltending, if you don't and the other team does, you aren't going to make it through the series.

Look at the playoff stats; out of the 16 teams in the playoffs, Leafs were #9 in goals allowed per game. Tampa #1 while in goals scored per game the Leafs were #4 while tampa was #9...that screams defensive and goal tending problems.

In the regular season, Leafs were #2 in most goals scored per game but the 14th worst team in the league in goals allowed (Colorado #24 and Tampa #27)...Rangers were #31 which is why they had so much success in the Playoffs. Scoring is not the issue with the Leafs.
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 6
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Modifié 12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 13
Quoting: ChiHawk
This is exactly why they have 6 first series post season losses in a row.

Colorado had very good possession but that all started with their defenders being able to steal pucks, create turnovers and transition the zone and with speed. Their defense is night and day better then the Leafs. The bottom line, outgunning the team in a scoreboard run-up doesn't work in playoff hockey but it's entertaining and that's how the Leafs have built themselves for entertainment during the regular season. If you look at the vast majority of cup winners in the cap era, they have all won through great defense and goal tending. Chicago, Pitsburgh, Tampa, Colorado, St Louis, etc. You only need to score 1 goal to a win a game if you have great defense and goaltending, if you don't and the other team does, you aren't going to make it through the series.

Look at the playoff stats; out of the 16 teams in the playoffs, Leafs were #9 in goals allowed per game. Tampa #1 while in goals scored per game the Leafs were #4 while tampa was #9...that screams defensive and goal tending problems.

In the regular season, Leafs were #2 in most goals scored per game but the 14th worst team in the league in goals allowed (Colorado #24 and Tampa #27)...Rangers were #31 which is why they had so much success in the Playoffs. Scoring is not the issue with the Leafs.


Rangers couldn't score against TB and neither could FLR. In past playoffs Leafs had other issues in which they had to outscore teams because their defence was not that great but they are always improving (mind you Matthews and Marner didn't have too many goals against CBJ in the play ins and MTL).

In the last 3 post-seasons by the end the other teams goaltending out did theirs. In the TB series the biggest difference was the Leafs depth other than kill penalties didn't do much, they couldn't give them any edge over TB. I didn't mean to say that Toronto has to outscore their problems since it's not that they are abysmal defensively.

They seem to have the same results but they way they get there is always different. Usually exchange blowouts early in the series but it ends in a similar fashion on paper.

CBJ: 3-4 OTL, 4-3 OTW, 0-3 L
MTL: 3-4 OTL, 2-3OTL, 1-3L
TB: 4-3W, 3-4OTL, 1-2L

Another way to look at it is that the other teams goalies just out did TOR goalies so you can say help your goalie out better defensively or you can say they need to finish off the games.

Looking at the TB series specifically, TB was able to get back into the game in game 5 because of the 5 on 3, it happens but the Leafs only hope of winning in OT was their top lines and pretty sure they were tired if you look at that final play, where Marner tries to send a stretch pass to Matthews who tripped over himself (or maybe was tripped) and then the puck ended up going back into the zone and shortly after into the net.

In game 6, the Leafs seemed like they didn't want to play to desperate and make an error since it was a one goal game. The depth really had nothing to show for it, they couldn't score or keep the puck out of the net. Engvall and Mikheyev plus minus was a 0, pretty sure all they scored were empty netters from one of them. The other guys were mostl minuses with the few minutes they played.

So the way I see it is the depth needs to be able to score more but ofc keep the puck out of their net too, but if Matthews and Marner are being used to shutdown top players, the Leafs would have to rely solely on line 2 for offense.

I'm not saying they need to win games with higher totals, just that it can't be that when thr depth shows up, the stars are absent and when thr stars show up the depth is absent offensively. The Leafs defense is not elite, they do need to find a way to defend better as a team but that can be in any zone.

What I should have said is they need depth forwards who can play the possession game and be able to provide some scoring.
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 49
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Quoting: GMBL
Rangers couldn't score against TB and neither could FLR. In past playoffs Leafs had other issues in which they had to outscore teams because their defence was not that great but they are always improving (mind you Matthews and Marner didn't have too many goals against CBJ in the play ins and MTL).

In the last 3 post-seasons by the end the other teams goaltending out did theirs. In the TB series the biggest difference was the Leafs depth other than kill penalties didn't do much, they couldn't give them any edge over TB. I didn't mean to say that Toronto has to outscore their problems since it's not that they are abysmal defensively.

They seem to have the same results but they way they get there is always different. Usually exchange blowouts early in the series but it ends in a similar fashion on paper.

CBJ: 3-4 OTL, 4-3 OTW, 0-3 L
MTL: 3-4 OTL, 2-3OTL, 1-3L
TB: 4-3W, 3-4OTL, 1-2L

Another way to look at it is that the other teams goalies just out did TOR goalies so you can say help your goalie out better defensively or you can say they need to finish off the games.

Looking at the TB series specifically, TB was able to get back into the game in game 5 because of the 5 on 3, it happens but the Leafs only hope of winning in OT was their top lines and pretty sure they were tired if you look at that final play, where Marner tries to send a stretch pass to Matthews who tripped over himself (or maybe was tripped) and then the puck ended up going back into the zone and shortly after into the net.

In game 6, the Leafs seemed like they didn't want to play to desperate and make an error since it was a one goal game. The depth really had nothing to show for it, they couldn't score or keep the puck out of the net. Engvall and Mikheyev plus minus was a 0, pretty sure all they scored were empty netters from one of them. The other guys were mostl minuses with the few minutes they played.

So the way I see it is the depth needs to be able to score more but ofc keep the puck out of their net too, but if Matthews and Marner are being used to shutdown top players, the Leafs would have to rely solely on line 2 for offense.

I'm not saying they need to win games with higher totals, just that it can't be that when thr depth shows up, the stars are absent and when thr stars show up the depth is absent offensively. The Leafs defense is not elite, they do need to find a way to defend better as a team but that can be in any zone.

What I should have said is they need depth forwards who can play the possession game and be able to provide some scoring.


1) What does that tell you about TB, they are awesome defensively which is why they had so much success.

2) Leafs don't have the stout defense or goaltending of cup winning teams. It starts there and is as much a responsibility of the actual defense as it is of the bottom 6 up front.

3) Because defense and goaltending is more consistent over a series or playoff run then scoring runs. Scoring comes in bunches, but never consistent. You could literally look at most series and see the same, a couple of run up games but overall mostly lower scoring.

4) Most successful playoff teams run 2 forward scoring lines and either the 3rd and 4th lines are both defensive physical lines or only the 4th line and the 3rd line is a 50/50 line but you have to have aggressive forechecking and backchecking on the 3rd and 4th lines which I feel is something the Leafs could be better at their bottom 6. It leads to creating turnovers and quickly getting the top 6 back on the ice when they regain possession. You obviously want to wear your opponent down both physically, through aggressive forechecking and through possession, let the other team play run and gun and wear out as team, get caught flat footed in odd man rushes and start making mistakes. Tampa, Boston, Pit, Chicago all are good examples of stout defenses, good goal tending, posession and patience. None of those teams played run and gun hockey or treated games like a track meet like the Leafs sometimes do. They all had 1 good player on each line forechecking aggressively. All of those teams deployed at least one if not two defensive forward lines that didn't score much as well. For example, Kampf as a Hawk was always a 4th liner and a very good one. To your point, I agree there needs to be an upgrade to the 3rd line in that sense. Kampf is never going to score are be an aggressive forechecker as he doesn't have the speed for it so what was he doing on the 3rd line. Kampf should be nothing more then a 3rd defensive player on the ice and when the puck is in the offensive zone, he should be skating to the bench for a change. I noticed that wasn't always the case watching the Leafs and the way Kampf was deployed.

So yes, they need to get better defensively, but that happens through both the defense and the bottom 6. I just don't buy into they need more scoring in the bottom 6, but instead say they need more defense, forechecking, and physicality in the bottom 6.

The good news is the Leafs have a 3 plus more years to figure it out. They should be fine and I'd be shocked if they don't get one cup in the next 3 to 5 years but they've also missed out on the last couple of years making a deeper run when they shouldn't have.
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12 juill. 2022 à 17 h 40
#18
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Quoting: ChiHawk
1) What does that tell you about TB, they are awesome defensively which is why they had so much success.

2) Leafs don't have the stout defense or goaltending of cup winning teams. It starts there and is as much a responsibility of the actual defense as it is of the bottom 6 up front.

3) Because defense and goaltending is more consistent over a series or playoff run then scoring runs. Scoring comes in bunches, but never consistent. You could literally look at most series and see the same, a couple of run up games but overall mostly lower scoring.

4) Most successful playoff teams run 2 forward scoring lines and either the 3rd and 4th lines are both defensive physical lines or only the 4th line and the 3rd line is a 50/50 line but you have to have aggressive forechecking and backchecking on the 3rd and 4th lines which I feel is something the Leafs could be better at their bottom 6. It leads to creating turnovers and quickly getting the top 6 back on the ice when they regain possession. You obviously want to wear your opponent down both physically, through aggressive forechecking and through possession, let the other team play run and gun and wear out as team, get caught flat footed in odd man rushes and start making mistakes. Tampa, Boston, Pit, Chicago all are good examples of stout defenses, good goal tending, posession and patience. None of those teams played run and gun hockey or treated games like a track meet like the Leafs sometimes do. They all had 1 good player on each line forechecking aggressively. All of those teams deployed at least one if not two defensive forward lines that didn't score much as well. For example, Kampf as a Hawk was always a 4th liner and a very good one. To your point, I agree there needs to be an upgrade to the 3rd line in that sense. Kampf is never going to score are be an aggressive forechecker as he doesn't have the speed for it so what was he doing on the 3rd line. Kampf should be nothing more then a 3rd defensive player on the ice and when the puck is in the offensive zone, he should be skating to the bench for a change. I noticed that wasn't always the case watching the Leafs and the way Kampf was deployed.

So yes, they need to get better defensively, but that happens through both the defense and the bottom 6. I just don't buy into they need more scoring in the bottom 6, but instead say they need more defense, forechecking, and physicality in the bottom 6.

The good news is the Leafs have a 3 plus more years to figure it out. They should be fine and I'd be shocked if they don't get one cup in the next 3 to 5 years but they've also missed out on the last couple of years making a deeper run when they shouldn't have.


Yeah, no doubt TB has good defense (overall team defense and dcore, they have good LD paired with more defensive RD) and COL has several puck moving defense paired with defensive RD. It also helps that Makar is elite offensively and defensively, it's funny though how Manson looked like a puck moving D too which kind of shows how their D-core really bought into playing a certain style. For Tampa their entire team bought into playing defensively to smother the other team, and play the counter game if necessary. So, yes, the Leafs as a whole need to buy into playing defense in some shape or form, and idk if it's possible but try to play gritty without taking a ton of penalties (although the refs were calling everything, several soft calls would be called against the Leafs and then against TB to even things out). The Leafs defense core needs work too, they let people walk into the slot, and that's been a problem for a long-time which hasn't been fixed.

That line with Kampf was supposed to be a shutdown line with some scoring capability but Engvall and Mikheyev's lack of physicality made them no match for the other teams bottom pairing. Perhaps you are right in that they should just stick him on the 4th line with the enforcers and play them short shifts. Now that Spezza isn't in the line up anymore (he wasn't that great this year), as long as they don't get back Thornton or another vet like that who they will feel obliged to play, then their lines should be a bit better.

But yeah, their young d-men need to take a step forward and the bottom 6 need to be more effective based on what you mentioned.
 
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