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(TOR/OTT) - future considerations for Murray + 2023 3rd rd pick + 2024 7th round pick

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12 juill. 2022 à 14 h 36
#126
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Modifié 12 juill. 2022 à 14 h 45
What a lot of people seem to not understand if no matter who he signed we could have been screwed

Lets say we signed Kuemper 6mill x 6 years and he becomes Seattle's Grubauer would we have been happy no

Or lets say we extended Campbell 5mill x 5 years but he plays like he did in the second half of last year would fans have been happy no

This not only costed less but we got picks out of it and only need to worry about it for 2 years and considering he played better than Mrazek and his injuries werent as bad its worth the gamble

But in general there really was no true big upgrade it net via free agency, there is no Vasilevskiy, Ottinger, or Shesterkin on the market rn. If there was 100% that goalie would be way out of our price range and be in the 8-10mill range

Murray plays like he did last year and gets support can see a 0.915 sv and even if not as we saw last year he has a 0.906 and as a certain team proved you dont need elite goaltending to go far these days.

Also this lines us up for when Hellebuyck becomes a UFA wink
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 41
#127
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Quoting: aadoyle
What a lot of people seem to not understand if no matter who he signed we could have been screwed

Lets say we signed Kuemper 6mill x 6 years and he becomes Seattle's Grubauer would we have been happy no

Or lets say we extended Campbell 5mill x 5 years but he plays like he did in the second half of last year would fans have been happy no

This not only costed less but we got picks out of it and only need to worry about it for 2 years and considering he played better than Mrazek and his injuries werent as bad its worth the gamble

But in general there really was no true big upgrade it net via free agency, there is no Vasilevskiy, Ottinger, or Shesterkin on the market rn. If there was 100% that goalie would be way out of our price range and be in the 8-10mill range

Murray plays like he did last year and gets support can see a 0.915 sv and even if not as we saw last year he has a 0.906 and as a certain team proved you dont need elite goaltending to go far these days.

Also this lines us up for when Hellebuyck becomes a UFA wink


It also lines up when Matthews becomes UFA , and he's gonna leave because in 7 years you won't have been able to win a playoff series partially du to the fact that Dubas refuses to bring a reputable goalie
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 45
#128
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How is wonderboy still at the helm? He screws up trade after trade and has no playoff success.
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 48
#129
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Quoting: rA9_Messiah
It also lines up when Matthews becomes UFA , and he's gonna leave because in 7 years you won't have been able to win a playoff series partially du to the fact that Dubas refuses to bring a reputable goalie


Not many stars leave there teams so lul thats just a silly notion

Throughout history even with the team struggling at times stars have commited with their draft teams

Ovie with the caps (took him how long to win a cup?)
Stamkos with tampa (same with him)
Forsberg with nashville (hasnt even won)

Among others. Not many teams will want to or be able to afford a 14-15mill Matthews anyways lul
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 57
#130
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Quoting: Danny12357
The more I think about this trade, the more I hate it.

Dubas should have gotten Ottawa's 2023 2nd on top of what they did get in this deal, and even then it's underwhelming, but the 2nd should have been automatically included to even start the framework. That 2nd has some additional importance, because now Ottawa has the cap space, and a 2nd, which they can easily use to offersheet Sandin at around $4M per, which Toronto probably has to walk away from.

Can you imagine if Dorian uses the 2nd that he managed to keep to turn around and get Sandin ? That possibility existing alone is a reason you should have demanded that 2nd. I kind of want to see Dorian do it.


I think (hope) the sens would use the cap space to get a top 4 defensively responsible defenseman to play with Jake Sanderson. Not gamble on a young player, vastly overpaying him. I think Sandin is safe from the ott offersheet
sensonfire a aimé ceci.
12 juill. 2022 à 15 h 58
#131
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Quoting: DDoverChucky
How is wonderboy still at the helm? He screws up trade after trade and has no playoff success.


Hes only screwed up 1 trade in his Gm tenure lul. The rest of his trades are either win-win or astounding victories for Toronto

As for the playoff success its not on him anymore but the players. They need to step it up as he can make all the trades and signings he wants but if the boyz dont show up they go no where. Its the case for every NHL team
12 juill. 2022 à 16 h 55
#132
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Quoting: DDoverChucky
How is wonderboy still at the helm? He screws up trade after trade and has no playoff success.


It's no so much the playoff success or lack of is that I'm disappointed in Leafs management. It's the poor UFA signs. bad trades which results in fewer picks, and the poor contracts negotiate ed at the time the in effect has reduced the cap to make the team better.
As for Dubas....why is he still GM? Well Shanahan hired him and like a lot of people they don't like firing people they hired cause it makes them look stupid. IMO Shanahan and much of the Leaf executive team have been not been doing their duties in helping Dubas. Dubas appears to have taken on far too much than he can manage well, while Leaf executive and fiddling in MLSE executive dining room just enjoying their bloated pay cheques.
12 juill. 2022 à 17 h 4
#133
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Craig Anderson would have been a better trade option.
12 juill. 2022 à 17 h 7
#134
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Craig Anderson would have been a better trade option.


Craig Anderson is only good against the Leafs though against every other team hes worse than Scott Darling was in Carolina

That would have been worse as hey Murray was and could be again a cup winner
12 juill. 2022 à 17 h 11
#135
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Quoting: aadoyle
Craig Anderson is only good against the Leafs though against every other team hes worse than Scott Darling was in Carolina

That would have been worse as hey Murray was and could be again a cup winner


Craig Anderson is a legend, Murray will not.
12 juill. 2022 à 17 h 14
#136
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Craig Anderson is a legend, Murray will not.


mmm no

Murray won back to back cups as a rookie not many goalies have done that

Only other guy to do that but not as a rookie was Vasileskiy
12 juill. 2022 à 23 h 0
#137
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Any Leaf fan happy with this deal is a delusional bootlicker.
13 juill. 2022 à 7 h 50
#138
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Quoting: CMac66
I think (hope) the sens would use the cap space to get a top 4 defensively responsible defenseman to play with Jake Sanderson. Not gamble on a young player, vastly overpaying him. I think Sandin is safe from the ott offersheet


I think it's a long shot as well, but the added risk created by doing this early is a reason to be skeptical of this deal. The Ottawa offer sheet would be about optics, but reality is jumping the gun to get this deal does make the Leafs quite vulnerable.
13 juill. 2022 à 7 h 56
#139
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Quoting: Ritzy
I have to agree, the return here is very underwhelming.

I have a feeling they probably did try to get a third team to retain, it's possible that neither side would agree to pay the third team.

The plus is that Murray's contract ends at the time as Matthews and Nylander. If they inked Campbell to the contract he's asking for, it would have been an issue getting AM and WN extended in two years. So there's a positive there.

I find it ironic that everyone is praising Dorion for getting rid of the ugly contract he signed, but Dubas gets ridiculed for offloading a bad contract he signed. Standard TOR hate. You could make the argument that Dorion gave up less to get rid of Murray than Dubas did with Mrazek, but we'd be splitting hairs on the value.

At the end of the day, this is Dubas' big gamble. If Murray turns it around and stays healthy, Dubas looks like a genius. If not, his job may be on the line. Only time will tell.


That's my issue with this as well. I was legitimately impressed that Dubas was targeting Murray, but that was because I thought there was a lot more value to squeeze out of here one way or another. I have softened a little, but only because I think every GM in the market for a goalie is getting absolutely hosed right now.

Detroit having to pay a 3rd for the UFA rights for a goalie with less than 100 game experience, and give him a big contract is objectively bad, especially when comparing to paying a 3rd and much lower cap hit for an equally impressive Ned last year, a deal that definitely doesn't look like a home run. The cost to acquire Georgiev was terrible, and again he hasn't been very good, and we haven't even seen a glimpse of an impressive ceiling in his case.

So I hate the deal because I feel Dubas got fixated on the player, not the value, jumped the gun, when he had lots of time, and just generally got out negotiated by Pierre Dorian, which feels unacceptable. Given that every goalie available this offseason carries very substantial risk, I don't hate taking two longer shots at much lower total cost, but I hate that Dubas had all the leverage and gave it all away.
13 juill. 2022 à 7 h 59
#140
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Quoting: aadoyle
What a lot of people seem to not understand if no matter who he signed we could have been screwed

Lets say we signed Kuemper 6mill x 6 years and he becomes Seattle's Grubauer would we have been happy no

Or lets say we extended Campbell 5mill x 5 years but he plays like he did in the second half of last year would fans have been happy no

This not only costed less but we got picks out of it and only need to worry about it for 2 years and considering he played better than Mrazek and his injuries werent as bad its worth the gamble

But in general there really was no true big upgrade it net via free agency, there is no Vasilevskiy, Ottinger, or Shesterkin on the market rn. If there was 100% that goalie would be way out of our price range and be in the 8-10mill range

Murray plays like he did last year and gets support can see a 0.915 sv and even if not as we saw last year he has a 0.906 and as a certain team proved you dont need elite goaltending to go far these days.

Also this lines us up for when Hellebuyck becomes a UFA wink


I generally agree with this. I liked Murray as a target, but Dubas had leverage and had time on his side, and used neither. That's a failing, and makes this underwhelming.

This already isn't the worst goalie deal made this year. The return paid for Georgiev, who has never even shown that he has starting upside, is still much worse. I know nobody can bring themselves to criticize a championship team, but that deal is just objectively worse. It probably gets applauded though when Colorado has a 115+ pt season and Georgiev's numbers look ok but with a ton of wins, despite the fact they could have just signed pretty much any two NHL quality goalies for next to nothing and been fine.
13 juill. 2022 à 8 h 12
#141
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Quoting: Danny12357
That's my issue with this as well. I was legitimately impressed that Dubas was targeting Murray, but that was because I thought there was a lot more value to squeeze out of here one way or another. I have softened a little, but only because I think every GM in the market for a goalie is getting absolutely hosed right now.

Detroit having to pay a 3rd for the UFA rights for a goalie with less than 100 game experience, and give him a big contract is objectively bad, especially when comparing to paying a 3rd and much lower cap hit for an equally impressive Ned last year, a deal that definitely doesn't look like a home run. The cost to acquire Georgiev was terrible, and again he hasn't been very good, and we haven't even seen a glimpse of an impressive ceiling in his case.

So I hate the deal because I feel Dubas got fixated on the player, not the value, jumped the gun, when he had lots of time, and just generally got out negotiated by Pierre Dorian, which feels unacceptable. Given that every goalie available this offseason carries very substantial risk, I don't hate taking two longer shots at much lower total cost, but I hate that Dubas had all the leverage and gave it all away.


The more I think about it, the more I believe that he was in a time crunch to get something done. It's all but officially signed that Campbell and Kuemper are going elsewhere, and the market is drying up.

The longer he waited, the more Dorian would know that he's desperate. Probably would have cost Dubas the salary retention if he waited it out.
13 juill. 2022 à 11 h 30
#142
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Quoting: Ritzy
The more I think about it, the more I believe that he was in a time crunch to get something done. It's all but officially signed that Campbell and Kuemper are going elsewhere, and the market is drying up.

The longer he waited, the more Dorian would know that he's desperate. Probably would have cost Dubas the salary retention if he waited it out.


It's obvious Dubas felt pressure, but my argument is that he shouldn't have. Ottawa isn't less desperate to shed actual money after trading for Debrincat, and if other goalies sign elsewhere, that also limits places they can deal Murray. I don't think you can just get Ottawa to retain more, but at the very least, Dubas should have gotten assets worth similar to the reported deal with Buffalo. That should have been the floor IMO.
13 juill. 2022 à 14 h 38
#143
Timo time
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I don’t hate a Samsonov-Murray tandem, but Campbell costed 5x5 and Kuemper 5.25x5. You couldn’t beat that Dubas?!?!
13 juill. 2022 à 15 h 4
#144
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Quoting: Saskleaf
I don’t hate a Samsonov-Murray tandem, but Campbell costed 5x5 and Kuemper 5.25x5. You couldn’t beat that Dubas?!?!


Samsonov-Murray tandem (@$6,5M)

Option were 1) Campbell or Kuemper PLUS Samsonov or Comrie for $7M.
or 2) Samsonov AND Comrie for $3.6M.
13 juill. 2022 à 15 h 8
#145
couldnt afford 2nd t
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Quoting: Messier99
Samsonov-Murray tandem ($6,5M)

Option were 1) Campbell or Kuemper PLUS Samsonov or Comrie for $7M.
or 2) Samsonov AND Comrie for $3.6M.


Those are only options if the players are willing to sign in Toronto.

More often than not, players do not want to sign in Canada. Kuemper likely chooses Washington over Toronto.

I don't think the Murray acquisition is as bad as people make it out to be given the complete lack of available options. The story shouldn't be that the Leafs acquired Murray, and that was a bad choice. The story should be the Leafs lacked any foresight about their goalie situation, and backed themselves in a corner where Murray was one of their best options.

I don't like the Samsonov signing for them. I think they needed to do what Ottawa did, and go for someone who was more of a known quantity as their #2. Samsonov, like Murray, is very inconsistent with a tremendous ceiling. The Leafs have assembled the most high risk/high reward tandem possible. Murray and Samsonov both have potential to be franchise goalies, but the odds of them being consistent are very low.
13 juill. 2022 à 15 h 26
#146
Timo time
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Quoting: Messier99
Samsonov-Murray tandem ($6,5M)

Option were 1) Campbell or Kuemper PLUS Samsonov or Comrie for $7M.
or 2) Samsonov AND Comrie for $3.6M.


I’d probably take option 1.
12 oct. 2022 à 23 h 11
#147
couldnt afford 2nd t
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13 oct. 2022 à 1 h 53
#148
Hakuna Matata
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Quoting: budgeteam
Untitled.png


Its 1 game out of 82 relax lul
16 oct. 2022 à 21 h 20
#149
couldnt afford 2nd t
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Quoting: aadoyle
Its 1 game out of 82 relax lul


We are 2 games into the season, he is now out 4+ weeks.

Dead dove stands.
16 oct. 2022 à 21 h 24
#150
Hakuna Matata
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Quoting: budgeteam
We are 2 games into the season, he is now out 4+ weeks.

Dead dove stands.


Even then it doesnt mean anything. He could come back and light up the league or he could stay on the IR. It sucks but once he's back he and Sammy will be a fine tandem with Sammy taking more of the load while Murray can be eased back in

Either way as you seem to forget we paid nothing for him and when he goes on LTIR we gain cap space lul
 
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