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Are sign-and-trades legal in the NHL

Créé par: CEO
Équipe: 2022-23 Hurricanes de la Caroline
Date de création initiale: 13 juin 2022
Publié: 13 juin 2022
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Arizona signs Malkin to a 2x10.5 deal, with the understanding that he will be immediately traded to Carolina 50% retained qlong with Dysin Mayo for 2024 1st, Jake Gardiner's contract, and a 2023 4th round pick
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
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1.
CAR
  1. Beauvillier, Anthony
Détails additionnels:
Salary shedding move by NYI
NYI
  1. Bear, Ethan [Droits de RFA]
2.
CAR
  1. Mayo, Dysin
Détails additionnels:
Evgeni Malkin 50% retained; see description
ARI
  1. Gardiner, Jake
  2. Choix de 4e ronde en 2023 (CAR)
  3. Choix de 1e ronde en 2024 (CAR)
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RFA - 2

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13 juin 2022 à 9 h 51
#1
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Isles say no. We don’t need a RD. Also, Beau is not a salary dump lol, he’s got value
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13 juin 2022 à 9 h 52
#2
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Sign-and-trade deals are legal, but nobody has been able to make it work (at least in recent memory).

I think the Oilers tried to get one done for Zach Hyman but Edmonton and Toronto couldn't agree on the price for the AAV savings by spreading the contract over 8 years vs 7 years -- or something like that.
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13 juin 2022 à 9 h 52
#3
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never saw anything saying otherrwise in the CBA, but its quite ridiculous so i dont think they would happen.
13 juin 2022 à 9 h 55
#4
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The NHL has been pretty strict on salary cap circumvention stuff, so while I don't think it's illegal I'm not sure the league would be very happy about it. I have to imagine there would be 31 other GM's fighting against this move. The fact that it hasn't been done yet tells me it probably can't be. In the NBA it's more about matching cap space for a player than it is straight manipulation.

Arizona is trying to cut costs. While this would get them assets, it's also an expensive move for them. If you structured the contract with low salary and high bonuses, they might be willing. But also that might make the league less likely to accept it, so I don't know. Interesting thought experiment.
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13 juin 2022 à 9 h 57
#5
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yes they are legal but I bet that trade would be disallowed by the NHL for cap circumvention. Unless it was Tampa that is.
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13 juin 2022 à 9 h 58
#6
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Quoting: Mr_Canoehead
Sign-and-trade deals are legal, but nobody has been able to make it work (at least in recent memory).

I think the Oilers tried to get one done for Zach Hyman but Edmonton and Toronto couldn't agree on the price for the AAV savings by spreading the contract over 8 years vs 7 years -- or something like that.


I think the hyman thing was the leafs trading his rights to EDM, not a sign and trade iirc
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 1
#7
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Quoting: Marcheesy
Isles say no. We don’t need a RD. Also, Beau is not a salary dump lol, he’s got value


No not a dump, but Schmidt wasn't a dump either. Bear is a depth defenseman, who has potential, in some eyes, to develop into a top 4 dman
13 juin 2022 à 10 h 3
#8
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I think if Pittsburgh was the team to sign Malkin and do this, that's one thing. But signing a free agent to trade them... I have to imagine that is cap circumvention
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 3
#9
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Quoting: Zuki9797
I think the hyman thing was the leafs trading his rights to EDM, not a sign and trade iirc


No, it was a sign and trade. Toronto was the only team that could sign him to an 8 year deal. Even trading the rights after the deadline means you cannot sign an 8 year deal with that new team.
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 4
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Quoting: CEO
No not a dump, but Schmidt wasn't a dump either. Bear is a depth defenseman, who has potential, in some eyes, to develop into a top 4 dman


We don’t want Bear. He’s not what we want, we need LD not a 24 ish year old RD whos proven nothing
13 juin 2022 à 10 h 4
#11
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I think it is legal.....
Quoting: Mr_Canoehead
Sign-and-trade deals are legal, but nobody has been able to make it work (at least in recent memory).

I think the Oilers tried to get one done for Zach Hyman but Edmonton and Toronto couldn't agree on the price for the AAV savings by spreading the contract over 8 years vs 7 years -- or something like that.


Three sign and trades recently I can think of is. Paciortitty from Montreal to Vegas. Happened in the summer with Patches wanting one out of Montreal with one more year on his contract. Stone from Ottawa to Vegas. Non playoff team Ottawa, had tried to sign Stone, so the price was known....Vegas and Stone agreed to the extension so the trade was made.
Last TDL....Lindholm to Bruins. Again a non playoff team who didn't think they could sign their UFA Dman, allowed him to negotiate with Boston for an extension...and then the trade was made.

But nothing I remember quite last Malkin proposal here on CF
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 8
#12
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Quoting: drambui
never saw anything saying otherrwise in the CBA, but its quite ridiculous so i dont think they would happen.


Ridicousness is a small price to pay for... exiting the 2nd round for like 3 years straight
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 9
#13
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Quoting: Marcheesy
We don’t want Bear. He’s not what we want, we need LD not a 24 ish year old RD whos proven nothing


Bear is a 25 year old RD, thank you very much
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 10
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Bear is a 25 year old RD


So even worse than I thought lol. Point is, we don’t want Bear lol
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 11
#15
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Sign and trades are legal, but that would definitely be blocked for cap circumvention.
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 12
#16
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Quoting: newballcoach
The NHL has been pretty strict on salary cap circumvention stuff, so while I don't think it's illegal I'm not sure the league would be very happy about it. I have to imagine there would be 31 other GM's fighting against this move. The fact that it hasn't been done yet tells me it probably can't be. In the NBA it's more about matching cap space for a player than it is straight manipulation.

Arizona is trying to cut costs. While this would get them assets, it's also an expensive move for them. If you structured the contract with low salary and high bonuses, they might be willing. But also that might make the league less likely to accept it, so I don't know. Interesting thought experiment.


Yeah, I thought of that. TBH Arizona can solve this problem quite easily. Sign some random AHL player to a two way contract, with a 10 million dollar caphit at the nhl level qnd a 200 thousand dollar caphit in the AHL. Immediately send him down. The cap hit would be 10 million minus buried penalty, allowing them to reach cap floor
13 juin 2022 à 10 h 13
#17
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Quoting: ecupirate07
yes they are legal but I bet that trade would be disallowed by the NHL for cap circumvention. Unless it was Tampa that is.


Tampa would get it double retained
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 13
#18
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look, before you judge me, it is VERY slow at work this week so I pulled up the CBA to look at it and see if it had anything to say about sign-and-trades - and it doesn't.

the thing I would've thought would be the biggest limitation would be a moratorium on trading newly signed players, which is not addressed at all. The retention would be fine and dandy because a form of immediately retaining on a newly acquired player already exists in 3-team trades where one team gets a pick for eating cap. So seeing as there are no rules saying you can't do it, I would argue that it's 100% legal to do this sign-and-trade, and I would hope that it happens because it is a cool new wrinkle of getting good players on good teams.

Isles pass on the Bear trade though, they don't need another RHD at this point.
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 21
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Quoting: CEO
Yeah, I thought of that. TBH Arizona can solve this problem quite easily. Sign some random AHL player to a two way contract, with a 10 million dollar caphit at the nhl level qnd a 200 thousand dollar caphit in the AHL. Immediately send him down. The cap hit would be 10 million minus buried penalty, allowing them to reach cap floor


The NHLPA would **** a brick if they did that. Definitely cap circumvention (in this case, the floor) and they would lose their minds. Not a good scene.

Quoting: dannibalcorpse
look, before you judge me, it is VERY slow at work this week so I pulled up the CBA to look at it and see if it had anything to say about sign-and-trades - and it doesn't.

the thing I would've thought would be the biggest limitation would be a moratorium on trading newly signed players, which is not addressed at all. The retention would be fine and dandy because a form of immediately retaining on a newly acquired player already exists in 3-team trades where one team gets a pick for eating cap. So seeing as there are no rules saying you can't do it, I would argue that it's 100% legal to do this sign-and-trade, and I would hope that it happens because it is a cool new wrinkle of getting good players on good teams.

Isles pass on the Bear trade though, they don't need another RHD at this point.


I suppose what's "legal" and what's going to be allowed is a fair question. I don't think the NHL is going to encourage this to happen, and I would think they would void the contract. There could definitely be a fight about it, but short of Arizona and Carolina threatening legal action, that's probably what would happen. It's clearly cap circumvention and not in the spirit of the rules. I think they've lived with a third team retaining salary on deadline trades, but I don't see them opening up this slippery slope. The next step would be trading a player to another team, having them retain salary and then trading him back. That's not a box they want to open IMO.
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 26
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UFA sign and trades are allowed but have never occurred, RFA yes, but not UFA. It’s so hard, why would Arizona eat close to $15m for a late 1st and 4th. That’s a lot for not a lot of asset recovery.
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 33
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Sign and trades are legal, but that would definitely be blocked for cap circumvention.


its make me wonder if it would though. its not like they are manipulating a mechanic that only benefit 1 team. it makes you think when salary retention was brought in the league a few years ago, they must have though of this scenario. in this case its helps both team, and the other team pay prenium assets to get the other team to take on salary. all in all, i qonder how much it differs by having a 3rd team retaining salary in trades which qe see all the time. its still very possible that the league would not allow this, im not as convinced as most that it would be impossible though.
13 juin 2022 à 10 h 35
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Quoting: drambui
its make me wonder if it would though. its not like they are manipulating a mechanic that only benefit 1 team. it makes you think when salary retention was brought in the league a few years ago, they must have though of this scenario. in this case its helps both team, and the other team pay prenium assets to get the other team to take on salary. all in all, i qonder how much it differs by having a 3rd team retaining salary in trades which qe see all the time. its still very possible that the league would not allow this, im not as convinced as most that it would be impossible though.


It definitely would be. Theres a precedent for the league stepping in and saying, “this doesn’t break any specific rules, but its cap circumvention, so no.” Think kovalchuk. This contract would be signed purely for the reason of retention. Not a chance the league allows that.
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13 juin 2022 à 10 h 35
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Quoting: newballcoach
The NHLPA would **** a brick if they did that. Definitely cap circumvention (in this case, the floor) and they would lose their minds. Not a good scene.



I suppose what's "legal" and what's going to be allowed is a fair question. I don't think the NHL is going to encourage this to happen, and I would think they would void the contract. There could definitely be a fight about it, but short of Arizona and Carolina threatening legal action, that's probably what would happen. It's clearly cap circumvention and not in the spirit of the rules. I think they've lived with a third team retaining salary on deadline trades, but I don't see them opening up this slippery slope. The next step would be trading a player to another team, having them retain salary and then trading him back. That's not a box they want to open IMO.


its make me wonder if it would though. its not like they are manipulating a mechanic that only benefit 1 team. it makes you think when salary retention was brought in the league a few years ago, they must have though of this scenario. in this case its helps both team, and the other team pay prenium assets to get the other team to take on salary. all in all, i qonder how much it differs by having a 3rd team retaining salary in trades which qe see all the time. its still very possible that the league would not allow this, im not as convinced as most that it would be impossible though. and by the way its already illegal to trade back a player to its former team with retained salary (you can trade for the player back but the salary rebtention disapear, so they tough about it when they brough in retain salary.)
13 juin 2022 à 10 h 40
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
It definitely would be. Theres a precedent for the league stepping in and saying, “this doesn’t break any specific rules, but its cap circumvention, so no.” Think kovalchuk. This contract would be signed purely for the reason of retention. Not a chance the league allows that.


i remember the kovalchuk contract, but i think it was manipulating things more in a ridiculous way, because the.contract was made in a way to manipulates numbers to bring cap down with him retiring bwfore the end of the agreement. and that why im saying it very very possible they step in and say no. but why would they in the end? the kovalchuk contracts was based on lie almost, you could just make a player sign a 30 year contract and have a ridiculously low cap hit of they allowed it. there was a big slippery slope. whats the slippery slope here? (just for argument sakes.) and like i said, i still think its likely they could step in, but not convinced. what are they gonna say after, you have to wait 6 month to trade a player with retain salary after signing a new.contract ? (maybe)
13 juin 2022 à 10 h 42
#25
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Quoting: newballcoach
I suppose what's "legal" and what's going to be allowed is a fair question. I don't think the NHL is going to encourage this to happen, and I would think they would void the contract. There could definitely be a fight about it, but short of Arizona and Carolina threatening legal action, that's probably what would happen. It's clearly cap circumvention and not in the spirit of the rules. I think they've lived with a third team retaining salary on deadline trades, but I don't see them opening up this slippery slope. The next step would be trading a player to another team, having them retain salary and then trading him back. That's not a box they want to open IMO.


Here's the reason I think it would go through without an issue - the concept of a second division team signing a guy to a short-term deal and flipping him out is basically accepted as smart business at this point(see: Taylor Hall's time on the Sabres), so if the league isn't going to have the CYA provision of moratorium on trading a newly signed player (MLB and NBA both have this, with the NBA having a carve-out specifically for sign-and-trades) I don't see how it could hold up in court if they tried to strike down a trade like this. They'd either have to go to court as you suggest (something I can't see them having any desire to do) or they'd have to get the players to agree to opening up the CBA - something that you know the NHLPA would try and extract some sort of concession from them to do. I think that mostly because of that last point the league would suck it up and let it happen.
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