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I think the Senators are done the Rebuild This Year and Compete next

Créé par: jassan28
Équipe: 2022-23 Sénateurs d'Ottawa
Date de création initiale: 12 avr. 2022
Publié: 12 avr. 2022
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12 avr. 2022 à 15 h 37
#1
Banni
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1. They might be able to compete for 5th in the division, which could possibly get the WC2 spot.
2. What on earth is that boston trade, and why would boston ever consider that?
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12 avr. 2022 à 16 h 26
#2
gavinray
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Ottawa declines easily
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12 avr. 2022 à 16 h 41
#3
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
What on earth is that boston trade, and why would boston ever consider that?



Hmmm Lysell is nice and fast but Formenton is not too slow as well and already a good NHL player. Thomson is no slouch either, 38 pts in 71 AHL games, has improved a lot on both sides of the puck

This was proposed by a Canucks/Oilers fan but I think Sens fans in general wouldn't like it.

Both teams wouldn't do it anyway. They wouldn't trade guys they have been quite high on that early
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12 avr. 2022 à 16 h 44
#4
Banni
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Quoting: Xspyrit
Hmmm Lysell is nice and fast but Formenton is not too slow as well and already a good NHL player. Thomson is no slouch either, 38 pts in 71 AHL games, has improved a lot on both sides of the puck

This was proposed by a Canucks/Oilers fan but I think Sens fans in general wouldn't like it.


Ya, no.

Lysell has a ceiling way higher than both of them. That’s what holds value these days.
12 avr. 2022 à 17 h 7
#5
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Ya, no.

Lysell has a ceiling way higher than both of them. That’s what holds value these days.


Teams winning now ignore ceiling to stay competitive, Lehkonen was traded for Barron and Barron has a high ceiling high reach potential while Lehky is middle 6, or the Bruins trading Urho for Lindholm, etc. Was trying to get that type of trade as I know Formy is a middle 6 decent speed guy and Thomson is a elite D prospect to add to the shelf, with Lysell being the highest ceiling piece of trade
12 avr. 2022 à 17 h 22
#6
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Quoting: jassan28
Teams winning now ignore ceiling to stay competitive, Lehkonen was traded for Barron and Barron has a high ceiling high reach potential while Lehky is middle 6, or the Bruins trading Urho for Lindholm, etc. Was trying to get that type of trade as I know Formy is a middle 6 decent speed guy and Thomson is a elite D prospect to add to the shelf, with Lysell being the highest ceiling piece of trade


Moving past the nauseating nicknames…those were trades of futures for NHL players (though i can’t really get the lindholm reference, seeing as how vaakanainen’s potential is lower than Lindholm’s floor). This is a trade of futures for a higher ceiling future. That sort of trade doesn’t really happen.
12 avr. 2022 à 18 h 9
#7
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If Ottawa is indeed ready to compete next year then trading away two blue chippers with the potential to impact the NHL team this coming season for an A prospect (that might not impact the big league for another 2+ season) and a 2nd doesn’t make much sense. Lysell is likely the best player of the bunch but you’re pushing the can further down the road.

I’d pass.
13 avr. 2022 à 8 h 20
#8
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Ya, no.

Lysell has a ceiling way higher than both of them. That’s what holds value these days.


ok what about Ridly Greig and Lassi Thomson?
13 avr. 2022 à 8 h 30
#9
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Modifié 13 avr. 2022 à 8 h 55
Quoting: jassan28
I know Formy is a middle 6 decent speed guy


Formenton's speed is not just decent, it's elite. He's one of the very few who can actually keep up with McDavid. And with the puck too. Difference is he doesn't have the same hands/skill, so he's more limited to 20-25 goals per year, which is pretty decent already

He has 15 goals in his rookie season, while getting at least 50% of his game in the bottom-6

But yeah he and Thompson wouldn't even come close to a 19 y/o prospect who doesn't figure in top prospects lists! Of course
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13 avr. 2022 à 8 h 33
#10
Banni
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Quoting: Xspyrit
ok what about Ridly Greig and Lassi Thomson?


What about a young 2C? If not, then move along.
13 avr. 2022 à 8 h 53
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
What about a young 2C? If not, then move along.


1. Ridley Greig is a much better prospect than Lysell
2. Sure Lysell's potential may a bit be better than Formenton and Thomson right now (though Formenton was just as good at his age and I'd argue Lassi was better) but really isn't that crazy and is still more than likely to be a middle 6 player, Formenton and Thomson are guys who are already proven to be solid/good NHL players so far while only being 21 and 22. None of them are really going to be top line players.
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13 avr. 2022 à 8 h 57
#12
Banni
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Quoting: Cowling
1. Ridley Greig is a much better prospect than Lysell
2. Sure Lysell's potential may a bit be better than Formenton and Thomson but really isn't that crazy and is still more than likely to be a middle 6 player, Formenton and Thomson are guys who are already proven to be solid/good NHL players so far while only being 21 and 22. None of them are really going to be top line players.


Bahahahah what? Thomson got the call up, looked like crap for 16 games, and got sent right back down. Formenton is an okay bottom six option (something the bruins don’t need). NHL teams don’t trade their best prospect for bottom six depth. NHL teams don’t trade their top prospects for a couple guys with lower ceilings. It’s just not how the NHL works. Grieg is merely okay.
13 avr. 2022 à 9 h 4
#13
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Bahahahah what? Thomson got the call up, looked like crap for 16 games, and got sent right back down. Formenton is an okay bottom six option (something the bruins don’t need). NHL teams don’t trade their best prospect for bottom six depth. NHL teams don’t trade their top prospects for a couple guys with lower ceilings. It’s just not how the NHL works. Grieg is merely okay.


Quoting: Xspyrit
Formenton's speed is not just decent, it's elite. He's one of the very few who can actually keep up with McDavid. And with the puck too. Difference is he doesn't have the same hands/skill, so he's more limited to 20-25 goals per year, which is pretty decent already

He has 15 goals in his rookie season, while getting at least 50% of his game in the bottom-6

But yeah he and Thompson wouldn't even come close to a 19 y/o prospect who doesn't figure in top prospects lists! Of course


Ha! Greig had and has a way better ppg than Lysell in the WHL and can do everything. Your "best prospect" is merely likely to be a 3rd line player. Lassi looked solid but the AHL team needs help making playoffs. Keep being delusional because the bruins have an average prospect for the first time in years. He is playing like an average 2nd round pick in the WHL.
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13 avr. 2022 à 9 h 14
#14
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Quoting: Cowling
Ha! Greig had and has a way better ppg than Lysell in the WHL and can do everything. Your "best prospect" is merely likely to be a 3rd line player. Lassi looked solid but the AHL team needs help making playoffs. Keep being delusional because the bruins have an average prospect for the first time in years. He is playing like an average 2nd round pick in the WHL.


Oh cmon buddy. We can do better than that.

In regard to Greig vs Lysell, yes, Greig had more points! But situations matter in hockey, and they particularly matter in junior. Vancouver stunk. Greig had a good season, third on his team in points. Lysell on the other hand I think led his team in goals, assists, and points. He might have led the team in +/- too, he was a +15 on a team that had a lot of severely minus players. Both are good prospects. Haven’t watched both play I like Lysells ceiling better.

In regard to the third liner comment, I can almost guarantee you he won’t be a third liner. If you saw him play one shift, you’d see that doesn’t really fit. He’ll either be a top six guy, or he won’t make the NHL. He’s not about to turn into a grinder.
13 avr. 2022 à 9 h 27
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Quoting: Cowling
Ha! Greig had and has a way better ppg than Lysell in the WHL and can do everything. Your "best prospect" is merely likely to be a 3rd line player. Lassi looked solid but the AHL team needs help making playoffs. Keep being delusional because the bruins have an average prospect for the first time in years. He is playing like an average 2nd round pick in the WHL.


huh? greig has been in the whl for 5 years. lysell was playing in the shl kind of different atmospheres for players. regardless. compare the wheat kings to the giants. wheat kings have 3 players of 60 points, one at 57 and then another at 44... vancouver has 1 player at or over 60 and then 2 in the low 40s. the one player in the 60s is lysell. not discounting what greig is doing but its still juniors... to say lysell projects to only be a 3rd line player means you arent watching prospects and simply looking at points. lysell is gunna be huge for this bruins team for hopefully the next 10+ years.

formenton's speed doesnt matter because we have the same player in john beecher already in our system. we had zach senyshyn who had elite speed and couldnt make the roster. theres more to the game than just speed.

thompson while RD is a need, theres no reason to make this deal as a bruins fan. we already have mcavoy locked up for 8 years, we have carlo for 5 or 6 more. thompson comes in and plays 3rd pair for 5 years? seems like a waste of capital. only defenders bruins would be acquiring would be depth players with lindholm, mcavoy, grz, and carlo all signed for term.

before you keep throwing around the word delusional, you realize matthews and marner started making playoffs with the leafs at 19/20 years old? your team is young, has some good pieces but isnt even close to a playoff team right now.
13 avr. 2022 à 10 h 43
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
What about a young 2C? If not, then move along.


This was a trap and you fell for it. You're confirming severe homerism

Ottawa would NOT trade Greig for Lysell, even if you add a 2nd. So imagine if Ottawa is the one adding Thomson lol

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-top-100-prospects-ranking/

This is a ranking from January 2022. Greig is ranked 58th, Lysell is not ranked

https://www.tsn.ca/owen-power-top-nhl-prospects-1.1784400

This is a ranking from yesterday. Greig is ranked 18th, Lysell is not ranked
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13 avr. 2022 à 11 h 18
#17
Banni
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Quoting: Xspyrit
This was a trap and you fell for it. You're confirming severe homerism

Ottawa would NOT trade Greig for Lysell, even if you add a 2nd. So imagine if Ottawa is the one adding Thomson lol

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-top-100-prospects-ranking/

This is a ranking from January 2022. Greig is ranked 58th, Lysell is not ranked

https://www.tsn.ca/owen-power-top-nhl-prospects-1.1784400

This is a ranking from yesterday. Greig is ranked 18th, Lysell is not ranked


How is that a trap? Lysell is an asset the bruins wouldn’t move unless NHL talent at a position of need was brought back. This isn’t rocket science.
13 avr. 2022 à 11 h 39
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Bahahahah what? Thomson got the call up, looked like crap for 16 games, and got sent right back down. Formenton is an okay bottom six option.


Do you really think when a young player get "sent right back down" from a rebuilding team it means he's crap? Senators are developing their prospects, they don't have to rush any of them. The only guys who bypassed the system were 3rd/4th OA picks Stutzle/Tkachuk who were physically ready and managed to be 0.55+ PPG in their rookie season. Chabot played his 2 final junior seasons after being drafted. Drake Batherson has been up and down in his first 2 pro seasons and is now over PPG at 23 y/o...

Thomson didn't look like crap at all. People actually finally understood why Ottawa took him 19th OA in 2019. Sens fans in general have been very critical of that pick before but now everyone is high on him. You just don't know anything outside of your own stuff that you are overrating in relation to other teams' stuff. Very typical.

Also, Formenton is not just "okay". Sure for now he doesn't produce more than a 3rd liner but he had a stretch with 19 pts in 25 games this season when he was given the opportunity to play top-6 because of injuries. He's only 22 y/o. Do you think Lysell will be PPG in his rookie season? lol

Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Grieg is merely okay.


Firstly, you can't even spell his name correctly because you probably have no idea who he is.

Secondly, he's considered as the better prospect by almost everyone in the hockey world.

Stop outdoing yourself, this blind homerism is embarrassing

Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Greig had a good season, third on his team in points.


And to defend BLIND homerism, you have to make it stupid on top of it. 3rd in points on his team? Maybe he didn't even play 60% of the games? He's 2nd in PPG in all WHL shakes head

Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Haven’t watched both play I like Lysells ceiling better.


So you are making these statements WITHOUT having watching them? tears of joy
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13 avr. 2022 à 11 h 58
#19
Banni
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Quoting: Xspyrit
Do you really think when a young player get "sent right back down" from a rebuilding team it means he's crap? Senators are developing their prospects, they don't have to rush any of them. The only guys who bypassed the system were 3rd/4th OA picks Stutzle/Tkachuk who were physically ready and managed to be 0.55+ PPG in their rookie season. Chabot played his 2 final junior seasons after being drafted. Drake Batherson has been up and down in his first 2 pro seasons and is now over PPG at 23 y/o...

Thomson didn't look like crap at all. People actually finally understood why Ottawa took him 19th OA in 2019. Sens fans in general have been very critical of that pick before but now everyone is high on him. You just don't know anything outside of your own stuff that you are overrating in relation to other teams' stuff. Very typical.

Also, Formenton is not just "okay". Sure for now he doesn't produce more than a 3rd liner but he had a stretch with 19 pts in 25 games this season when he was given the opportunity to play top-6 because of injuries. He's only 22 y/o. Do you think Lysell will be PPG in his rookie season? lol



Firstly, you can't even spell his name correctly because you probably have no idea who he is.

Secondly, he's considered as the better prospect by almost everyone in the hockey world.

Stop outdoing yourself, this blind homerism is embarrassing



And to defend BLIND homerism, you have to make it stupid on top of it. 3rd in points on his team? Maybe he didn't even play 60% of the games? He's 2nd in PPG in all WHL shakes head



So you are making these statements WITHOUT having watching them? tears of joy


Where did i say he was crap? I was just responding to someone who said he was a proven good NHL player. He isn’t, which is why he got sent down. And you’re calling people, “BLIND?”
13 avr. 2022 à 12 h 1
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Quoting: hanson493
huh? greig has been in the whl for 5 years.


And yet, Greig is only 6 months older, still 19 y/o

If anything, Lysell has more pro experience so that should give him an advantage.

And Greig had a much better PPG in the WHL last year as he was younger than Lysell this year.

Anyway, everyone knows Greig's game is a lot more evolved than offensive production

Quoting: hanson493
formenton's speed doesnt matter because we have the same player in john beecher already in our system. we had zach senyshyn who had elite speed and couldnt make the roster. theres more to the game than just speed.


lol Formenton's game is a lot more than speed though. Like I said above, he had a stretch with 19 pts in 25 games when he first got a top-6 opportunity. He's also a very good PKer and good defensively with a mean streak. He's a 22 y/o rookie

https://www.silversevensens.com/2022/1/26/22901993/alex-formenton-has-arrived-ottawa-senators-sens-nhl

Quoting: hanson493
before you keep throwing around the word delusional, you realize matthews and marner started making playoffs with the leafs at 19/20 years old? your team is young, has some good pieces but isnt even close to a playoff team right now.


lol what does it have to do with anything here?

Quoting: CMcAvoy73
How is that a trap? Lysell is an asset the bruins wouldn’t move unless NHL talent at a position of need was brought back. This isn’t rocket science.


No one in their right mind wouldn't trade Lysell for Greig and Thomson. Yet you are there "What about a young 2C? If not, then move along."

To answer that, the only guy the Sens have who could fit this bill is Colin White. Josh Norris and Tim Stutzle are clearly going to be better than 2Cs and Pinto will prove it next year too. White is more a 3rd liner though but he's a very good possession with a very big attention to details, so maybe with the right opportunity and good linemates he could put second line numbers again (like he did in his rookie season)
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13 avr. 2022 à 12 h 3
#21
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Quoting: Xspyrit
And yet, Greig is only 6 months older, still 19 y/o

If anything, Lysell has more pro experience so that should give him an advantage.

And Greig had a much better PPG in the WHL last year as he was younger than Lysell this year.

Anyway, everyone knows Greig's game is a lot more evolved than offensive production



lol Formenton's game is a lot more than speed though. Like I said above, he had a stretch with 19 pts in 25 games when he first got a top-6 opportunity. He's also a very good PKer and good defensively with a mean streak. He's a 22 y/o rookie

https://www.silversevensens.com/2022/1/26/22901993/alex-formenton-has-arrived-ottawa-senators-sens-nhl



lol what does it have to do with anything here?



No one in their right mind wouldn't trade Lysell for Greig and Thomson. Yet you are there "What about a young 2C? If not, then move along."

To answer that, the only guy the Sens have who could fit this bill is Colin White. Josh Norris and Tim Stutzle are clearly going to be better than 2Cs and Pinto will prove it next year too. White is more a 3rd liner though but he's a very good possession with a very big attention to details, so maybe with the right opportunity and good linemates he could put second line numbers again (like he did in his rookie season)


Right, so theres no 2C. So there’s no deal. You’re just not understanding organizational needs here. Teams in win now mode don’t shuffle deck chairs. They try to improve their NHL roster.
13 avr. 2022 à 12 h 5
#22
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Where did i say he was crap? I was just responding to someone who said he was a proven good NHL player. He isn’t, which is why he got sent down. And you’re calling people, “BLIND?”


I didn't call you blind, just stop now, people are not stupid and you're not going to fool them. I said you are guilty of "blind homerism" which is 100% true, as evidenced in this thread

Can you even deny it at this point?


Regarding the crap comment, you said "Thomson got the call up, looked like CRAP for 16 games"

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop polluting the internet with your misinformation

Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Right, so theres no 2C. So there’s no deal. You’re just not understanding organizational needs here. Teams in win now mode don’t shuffle deck chairs. They try to improve their NHL roster.


This was NOT the discussion. You are now reverting to it because you realize how homerish you value valuations were.
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13 avr. 2022 à 12 h 8
#23
Banni
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Quoting: Xspyrit
I didn't call you blind, just stop now, people are not stupid and you're not going to fool them. I said you are guilty of "blind homerism" which is 100% true, as evidenced in this thread

Can you even deny it at this point?


Regarding the crap comment, you said "Thomson got the call up, looked like CRAP for 16 games"

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop polluting the internet with your misinformation



This was NOT the discussion. You are now reverting to it because you realize how homerish you value valuations were.


It was literally always the discussion.
13 avr. 2022 à 12 h 25
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Modifié 13 avr. 2022 à 12 h 51
Quoting: CMcAvoy73
It was literally always the discussion.


At the beginning maybe, but it shifted to value (you literally did it yourself in post #4). One thing we should all do to improve communication is mentioning when we're talking about pure value or about team needs/context.

But please do a bit of research before proclaiming your guy as the next best thing while the guy from the other team is "merely okay"

And I am not trying to diminish Lysell. On draft day and after the draft, he was among the guys I named that I would take over Tyler Boucher (Sens 10th OA pick)

A few examples :

I have a different definition of safe pick... To me the safe pick here was Sillinger, or even Lucius or Lysell.

Xspyrit, Jul 16, 2021 : If a guy like McTavish, Kent Johnson or Sillinger is available at 10th, you absolutely snag him. Could be a few others too like Lucius, Lysell, etc. Heck, even Coronato seems very interesting

From the Sens, Alex Formenton received the 8th highest amount of votes for that 50th spot but maybe he should have been voted already (I voted Lysell)

The last one was a comment in January reviewing a September 2021 poll ranking NHL prospects (on another website). I actually voted Lysell at #50, over my guys Formenton and Bernard-Docker who were among options
Cowling a aimé ceci.
13 avr. 2022 à 13 h 16
#25
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Rejoint: juin 2019
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Quoting: Xspyrit
And yet, Greig is only 6 months older, still 19 y/o

If anything, Lysell has more pro experience so that should give him an advantage.

And Greig had a much better PPG in the WHL last year as he was younger than Lysell this year.

Anyway, everyone knows Greig's game is a lot more evolved than offensive production



lol Formenton's game is a lot more than speed though. Like I said above, he had a stretch with 19 pts in 25 games when he first got a top-6 opportunity. He's also a very good PKer and good defensively with a mean streak. He's a 22 y/o rookie

https://www.silversevensens.com/2022/1/26/22901993/alex-formenton-has-arrived-ottawa-senators-sens-nhl



lol what does it have to do with anything here?



No one in their right mind wouldn't trade Lysell for Greig and Thomson. Yet you are there "What about a young 2C? If not, then move along."

To answer that, the only guy the Sens have who could fit this bill is Colin White. Josh Norris and Tim Stutzle are clearly going to be better than 2Cs and Pinto will prove it next year too. White is more a 3rd liner though but he's a very good possession with a very big attention to details, so maybe with the right opportunity and good linemates he could put second line numbers again (like he did in his rookie season)


so formenton went 19 in 25 then went 9 in 45? doesnt sound great. honestly 35 in what 100 isnt that impressive. youve got a nice role player for the bottom 6 doesnt make him extremely valuable. not to mention where are you putting formenton on the bruins? theres literally 0 reason for this trade. a RD thats limited to strictly 3rd pair and another left shot lw thats going to be 3rd line at best. why would the bruins be giving up their best prospect and a 2nd for that. i dont think you guys understand how value works.

maybe greig is a stud... maybe he sucks... you literally never know. lysell is literally the filler for what the bruins need long term, a talented right shot right wing. hes the ONLY one we have in the system. doesnt make sense to give him up for lefties or defense that are going to be blocked.
 
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