Way too much for severson and leafs say no to lindholm trade

Props for including Niemela.
Its a reasonable offer

If I am being 100% honest, it is more than likely the high end of what you could expect. If you move him you may need to be prepared for the next level of prospect below him.

Leafs gave up their #3 and #5 prospects along with a 1st for Muzzin a few years ago.
It is not unreasonable for Devils to ask for two top-5 guys here.

And while we are being honest, I don't think the Devils have any intention of trading him.

so then instead of crying about offers you see on this website everyday, just say that

the 3 and 5 guys now are better than the 3 and 5 guys then so stop using that as a comparable

I'd hardly call Grundstrom and Durzi our 3 and 5 prospects. More importantly They would both have been in that next level down below the Niemela tier of prospect so...

Its the first time I used that as a comparable.
I just read the article that ranked them #3 and #5 just minutes ago.

(Here is the the link to 2018 Leaf prospect ranking)

This is much more a condemnation of the Hunter years than a boon to your argument

Quoting: NHLfan10506
Yeah, the price hasn't changed.



This is not far off.

Muzzin was traded in early 2019 for the Leafs 1st, the Leafs most recent 2nd round pick and the Leafs 2nd rounder from 2 years prior.

2019 1st round pick (TOR)
Sean Durzi (2018 2nd round pick)
Carl Grundstrom (2016 2nd round pick)

So apples-to-apples would be:

2022 1st round pick (TOR)
Matthew Knies (2021 2nd round pick)
Nick Robertson (2019 2nd round pick)

Yet...Leafs fans keep sending Holl + AHLer + mid-round pick.

(also, there is a premium paid for RHD...see...well, any RHD deal over past couple of years)

this was you the other day, youre making the same type of comparable

I was going by the 2018 ranking Scott Wheeler of the Athletic.

He had...

1. Sandin
2. Liljegren
3. Grundstrom
4. Bracco
5. Durzi

And I fully understand 3/5 then =/= 3/5 now. I am saying that to refute claims that they were nothing prospects by the time the trade occurred.

They were solid B prospects at the time. More than nothing, and they had some upside but not anything like you're implying. A current comparable would be closer to Hirvonen and Abruzzese

Emphasis on the bolded. I only knew they were two recent 2nd rounders. Saw the 2018 ranking today.

I don't think any of them crack the top level of prospects in NHL. Maybe Niemela gets there, considering his trajectory.

Here is how I ranked the Leafs top-5 prospects recently.

46. Nick Robertson
59. Topi Niemela
75. Rodion Amirov
86. Matthew Knies
93. Veeti Miettinen

And for Devils...

7. Luke Hughes
8. Alexander Holtz
39. Shakir Mukhamadullin
44. Arseni Gritsyuk
89. Nolan Foote

Not asking for elite guys here

What am I implying? B-level prospect, using central scouting definition, is a 2nd or 3rd round player. That is pretty much what Robertson and Knies are now.

The Hockey News said that they Leafs had the #1 pipeline in 2018. But #19 today. Corey Pronman said #13 then, #21 now. Elite Prospects says #14 then, #15 now.

Hard to imagine the pipeline has improved as much as some claim here to suggest that Knies, Niemela, etc are significantly better that previous names on those lists.

Not interested in trading Lindholm for that picayune return. Ritchie isn't worth the retention -- we should know -- and Robertson can't lace Lindholm's skates.

And right here is your issue. Where someone was drafted is not related to the level of prospect they are. Debrincat for example, despite being a 2nd rounder was an A prospect. Knies and Robertson are there as well. Mook despite being a 1st rounder is a B prospect. Guys develop differently and to ignore everything past their draft slot is foolish

What exactly do you think a 2-3 month rental returns?

emphasis on the bolded, how you rank the prospects

bottomline of all these threads, your ask of niemala, knies 1st and 3rd for a top4 d is insane, yeah yeah youve seen some bad offers, but dont complain and then also counter offer something bad

I recall Nick Foligno getting a first and two fourths from Toronto, and I recall Jean-Pierre Pageau getting a first, second and third from the New York Islanders, and I don't think either had the same value as Hampus Lindholm, but let's assume that they did.

Robbie should be valued around that of a late 1st. Retention will be standard due to the entire league being capped out and named piggies tend to hold a bit more value, hence the Ritchie dump. If you are going to get more than offered here, it isn't anything notable.

When the scouting community uses "A-level" or "B-level" if roughly puts then in a tier relative to their piers. Its pretty normal nomenclature. So an "A-level" guy would be roughly one of the top-30 guys from his age cohort. Where they were actually drafted is insignificant (unless its draft day).

It comes from the central scouting bureau's listings, but is terminology used post-draft as well.

In other words, if Robertson's draft were being re-held today, and he were likely to be a 1st rounder, could call him an A-guy.

Feel free to substitute with your own.

Here is The Athletic (Jan 2022)

71. Robertson
89. Niemela
91. Amirov
118. Knies
157. Hirvonen

I believe 2 good prospects and 1st is a fair offer. Just because they are the Leafs top prospects doesn't mean they will be on other teams.

Ducks decline

its too much end of story, you sound like the people you are complaining about, dont be a hypocrite

once again didnt say that, just because severson is a top 2 d on the devils doesnt mean he is on other teams, this can go both ways