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1-2 punch

Créé par: ragger_lord
Équipe: 2021-22 Islanders de New York
Date de création initiale: 29 nov. 2021
Publié: 29 nov. 2021
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Totally unrealistic but the Petey for Barzals trades got me thinking, what about Petey AND Barzal.

Originally I had Whalstrom in the Petey trade but then I thought it was too much. Now I think it's too little so IDK. What's Pageaus value? I'm thinking he's a first equivalent.
Transactions
1.
NYI
  1. Koskinen, Mikko
  2. Choix de 1e ronde en 2022 (EDM)
  3. Choix de 2e ronde en 2022 (EDM)
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PIT
  1. Choix de 1e ronde en 2022 (EDM)
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NYI
BUF
  1. Clutterbuck, Cal
  2. Choix de 3e ronde en 2022 (NYI)
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NYI
  1. Chiarot, Ben (1 000 000 $ retained)
MTL
  1. Choix de 2e ronde en 2022 (EDM)
  2. Choix de 2e ronde en 2022 (COL)
5.
VAN
  1. Dobson, Noah
  2. Pageau, Jean-Gabriel
  3. Choix de 1e ronde en 2022 (NYI)
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Top 3 protected first slides to unprotected 2023 if protection used.
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29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 16
#1
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It'll take Barzal to get Pettersson.
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29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 22
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Quoting: Canucks33
It'll take Barzal to get Pettersson.


I'm a Canucks fan but I gotta disagree.

I think Barzal has more value than Petey (at this moment) which would mean we would have to add.

Not that Petterson should be traded but I thought a roster player at the same position, young top 4 potential D and first was an ok return.

Again, I had Whalstrom in the trade as well but I think that was too much.
29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 25
#3
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Not getting Pettersson for that.

But the rest of the deals are interesting and make sense for both clubs. Hard to figure out what PIT is going to do with Rust this year...
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29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 26
#4
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I like Varlamov, but the Oilers are unlikely to be able to fit him under the salary cap next season.
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29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 27
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Quoting: uphere
I like Varlamov, but the Oilers are unlikely to be able to fit him under the salary cap next season.


Imo that falls into a next season problem. Oilers look like a wagon this year but goaltending could still hold them back.

Can always give up assets to move guys like Kassian/Keith in the off season.
29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 29
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Quoting: villenash
Not getting Pettersson for that.

But the rest of the deals are interesting and make sense for both clubs. Hard to figure out what PIT is going to do with Rust this year...


Tough to say with Rust. I think they probably wait until they're fully healthy and see where they stand. Hard to selloff assets when you still have Sid, Geno and Letang.

Re: Petterson I agree I think. Like I said in the description I had Whalstrom in the deal but I felt like that was too much. Maybe add räty in.

Also depends of Petterson can bounce back. He had the lowest 5v5 ice time of any Canuck last night, and it wasn't undeserved.
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29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 37
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Quoting: ragger_lord
Tough to say with Rust. I think they probably wait until they're fully healthy and see where they stand. Hard to selloff assets when you still have Sid, Geno and Letang.

Re: Petterson I agree I think. Like I said in the description I had Whalstrom in the deal but I felt like that was too much. Maybe add räty in.

Also depends of Petterson can bounce back. He had the lowest 5v5 ice time of any Canuck last night, and it wasn't undeserved.


I think a lot of teams would take a flyer on Pettersson. I find it hard to believe that VAN would trade him so soon, but who knows. I'd do something like Tolvanen + Fabbro + 1st + 2nd, though I bet VAN would want Tomasino.
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29 nov. 2021 à 15 h 37
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Quoting: ragger_lord
I'm a Canucks fan but I gotta disagree.

I think Barzal has more value than Petey (at this moment) which would mean we would have to add.

Not that Petterson should be traded but I thought a roster player at the same position, young top 4 potential D and first was an ok return.

Again, I had Whalstrom in the trade as well but I think that was too much.


The Canucks have no reason to move Pettersson. If they do, it won't be simply for a "good" return, it'll have to be an overpayment.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 3
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Quoting: ragger_lord
I'm a Canucks fan but I gotta disagree.

I think Barzal has more value than Petey (at this moment) which would mean we would have to add.

Not that Petterson should be traded but I thought a roster player at the same position, young top 4 potential D and first was an ok return.

Again, I had Whalstrom in the trade as well but I think that was too much.


Go look at Barzal's stats he's been just as sh*t as Pettersson this year. The only possible way it happens is if it's a Barzal-Petey swap
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 7
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Quoting: Canucks33
The Canucks have no reason to move Pettersson. If they do, it won't be simply for a "good" return, it'll have to be an overpayment.


Oh, I agree, for now.

That said, it become a question of asset management. The longer we wait to fire Green, the longer we wait to see if it's a coaching issue or just Petey playing bad.

If he plays bad for an entire season, his value is a lot lower than it is currently. Firing the coach now means we can more fairly evaluate him at this point.

At some point the decision needs to be made whether we keep or trade Petey and it's not an easy one to make.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 10
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Quoting: uphere
I like Varlamov, but the Oilers are unlikely to be able to fit him under the salary cap next season.


Hard to say. Smith could retire and each passing day sitting on injured list just makes that more of a sad reality.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 13
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Quoting: ragger_lord
Oh, I agree, for now.

That said, it become a question of asset management. The longer we wait to fire Green, the longer we wait to see if it's a coaching issue or just Petey playing bad.

If he plays bad for an entire season, his value is a lot lower than it is currently. Firing the coach now means we can more fairly evaluate him at this point.

At some point the decision needs to be made whether we keep or trade Petey and it's not an easy one to make.


Making a decision as important as trading Pettersson now is an overreaction. If Pettersson shows that after 2 years under new coaching/management and at age 25 he still doesn't look the same, then we can investigate a trade more seriously. If his value has gone down then so be it. Until then, you keep your 23 year old franchise center with a PPG Playoff run and don't question it.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 23
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That’s a huge overpay for varlamov. The reigning Vezina winner fleury most likely won’t even get a 1st at the deadline this year so why would varly get more. Take the 1st out and it’s a deal Edmonton would consider
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29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 47
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Quoting: Canucks33
Making a decision as important as trading Pettersson now is an overreaction. If Pettersson shows that after 2 years under new coaching/management and at age 25 he still doesn't look the same, then we can investigate a trade more seriously. If his value has gone down then so be it. Until then, you keep your 23 year old franchise center with a PPG Playoff run and don't question it.


I agree it shouldn't be made now, but it's also why it's important to get new coaching/management ASAP.

If you wait to trade him, you're risking losing him for almost nothing if he doesn't bounce back. I don't think that falls under "so be it" territory.

Remember Petterson has a high QO that walks him to FA. If he plays poorly enough we risk overpaying him because of the QO or him walking.

I'm just spit balling. We don't need to trade him now but it's a tough spot to be in.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 53
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Quoting: Aasen6
That’s a huge overpay for varlamov. The reigning Vezina winner fleury most likely won’t even get a 1st at the deadline this year so why would varly get more. Take the 1st out and it’s a deal Edmonton would consider


Fleury hasn't been playing at Vezina for until very recently this season.

Also, a couple reasons he would get more, one is the fact he has 2 years on his deal so isn't a pure rental, two is his cap hit is less than MAF.

Koskinen has to go back to make the cap work. That's why I threw the second in there. I'm sure NYI would much rather go for a cheaper back-up and use the remaining cap space for something else.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 54
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Quoting: ragger_lord
Imo that falls into a next season problem. Oilers look like a wagon this year but goaltending could still hold them back.

Can always give up assets to move guys like Kassian/Keith in the off season.

Goaltending is NOT holding the Oilers back despite missing their #1 for most of the season so far. There's no way they're trading a guy who is 11-2-0 playing behind a below average defense corps for a guy who is 0-4-0 while playing behind an above average defense corps AND GIVING UP TWO HIGH PICKS.

That's just a terrible deal for Edmonton.

As for next year, Edmonton already has 2 goalies signed, so unless they determine that Smith is going to retire, they probably aren't in the market for a goalie.
29 nov. 2021 à 16 h 55
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Quoting: ragger_lord
I agree it shouldn't be made now, but it's also why it's important to get new coaching/management ASAP.

If you wait to trade him, you're risking losing him for almost nothing if he doesn't bounce back. I don't think that falls under "so be it" territory.

Remember Petterson has a high QO that walks him to FA. If he plays poorly enough we risk overpaying him because of the QO or him walking.

I'm just spit balling. We don't need to trade him now but it's a tough spot to be in.


The "so be it" wasn't to say that we'll settle and trade him for scraps. It more so to say that we bet on him returning to form and it didn't work it, so now we trade him for a 1st + + instead of a crazy 1 for 1 with someone on Barzal's level. Pettersson has a good a chance as anything we could get in return of being a true 1C. In reality, the trading him shouldn't be in our minds at all, even down the line. We should be focused on bringing in the right players around him to make him the best player he can be. He's 23 and young enough to keep around even if we do a 5 year rebuild. Pettersson, Hughes and Demko are the true untouchables; the 1C, 1D and 1G you build your core around.
29 nov. 2021 à 17 h 3
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Quoting: CD282
Goaltending is NOT holding the Oilers back despite missing their #1 for most of the season so far. There's no way they're trading a guy who is 11-2-0 playing behind a below average defense corps for a guy who is 0-4-0 while playing behind an above average defense corps AND GIVING UP TWO HIGH PICKS.

That's just a terrible deal for Edmonton.

As for next year, Edmonton already has 2 goalies signed, so unless they determine that Smith is going to retire, they probably aren't in the market for a goalie.


Goaltending isn't holding Edmonton back YET. I wouldn't be very confident heading into the playoffs with a Smith/Koskinen tandem. Especially when your competition is Markstrom, Lehner, Helle, Gibson (maybe) etc.

You need a goalie that can steal games to win the cup, not just an average goalie. Look at the last goalies to win the cup, or even play in the finals. They are all either elite or got extremely hot at the right time.

Varly isn't playing well this season but he's not old enough to be considered over the hill, he's posted solid numbers, and he's backstopped his team to b2b ECF's.

Also, the Islanders HAD a good defense. It's pretty bad this year, especially with their injuries.

Edmonton is never making the finals with a Smith/Koskinen tandem, and anything other than that with McDrai is a failure.
29 nov. 2021 à 17 h 18
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Quoting: ragger_lord
Goaltending isn't holding Edmonton back YET. I wouldn't be very confident heading into the playoffs with a Smith/Koskinen tandem. Especially when your competition is Markstrom, Lehner, Helle, Gibson (maybe) etc.

You need a goalie that can steal games to win the cup, not just an average goalie. Look at the last goalies to win the cup, or even play in the finals. They are all either elite or got extremely hot at the right time.

Varly isn't playing well this season but he's not old enough to be considered over the hill, he's posted solid numbers, and he's backstopped his team to b2b ECF's.

Also, the Islanders HAD a good defense. It's pretty bad this year, especially with their injuries.

Edmonton is never making the finals with a Smith/Koskinen tandem, and anything other than that with McDrai is a failure.

Varlamov isn't Hellebuyck or Vasilevsky, so that leaves him in the same situation as Smith, Koskinen and Skinner - you're just hoping he gets hot at the right time. That's not a recipe for success, not when a 1st + 2nd + $5M in cap space is involved. Sorry, no dice. I'd rather spend the picks & money to upgrade the defense if something logical comes up, to create conditions where any competent goalie can succeed: an above average defense.
29 nov. 2021 à 17 h 26
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Quoting: CD282
Varlamov isn't Hellebuyck or Vasilevsky, so that leaves him in the same situation as Smith, Koskinen and Skinner - you're just hoping he gets hot at the right time. That's not a recipe for success, not when a 1st + 2nd + $5M in cap space is involved. Sorry, no dice. I'd rather spend the picks & money to upgrade the defense if something logical comes up, to create conditions where any competent goalie can succeed: an above average defense.


You're missing the part where Varly has proven he can go deep in the playoffs. He's a MUCH better goalie than Smith (at this point), Skinner or Koskinen.

Agree to disagree I guess but I maintain that even with defensive upgrades, Edmonton's current goalie tandem won't get them where they need to go
29 nov. 2021 à 17 h 29
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Quoting: ragger_lord
You're missing the part where Varly has proven he can go deep in the playoffs. He's a MUCH better goalie than Smith (at this point), Skinner or Koskinen.

Agree to disagree I guess but I maintain that even with defensive upgrades, Edmonton's current goalie tandem won't get them where they need to go

Varlamov WAS a better goalie WHEN he had a better defense corps - you said so yourself. Edmonton's defensive game is still a downgrade on NYI, so there's NOTHING to indicate that Varlamov would fare better in Edmonton in the playoffs.
29 nov. 2021 à 17 h 38
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Quoting: CD282
Varlamov WAS a better goalie WHEN he had a better defense corps - you said so yourself. Edmonton's defensive game is still a downgrade on NYI, so there's NOTHING to indicate that Varlamov would fare better in Edmonton in the playoffs.


Varly had a 2.2 Goals saved above expected in last year's playoffs, Smith had a -1.2. GSaX is about as close as you can get to accounting for team defense.

Going back to 19/20 Varly had a 5.8 while Smith and Kosk were -2.8 and -3.2 respectively.

Varly has a negative GSAx this year (so do Smith and Koski but theirs are admittedly better) but I would bet on him regressing to his norm over the last couple seasons. He's only played 5 games, and the Isles have had one of the toughest schedules in the league (and covid)
29 nov. 2021 à 17 h 42
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Quoting: ragger_lord
Varly had a 2.2 Goals saved above expected in last year's playoffs, Smith had a -1.2. GSaX is about as close as you can get to accounting for team defense.

Going back to 19/20 Varly had a 5.8 while Smith and Kosk were -2.8 and -3.2 respectively.

Varly has a negative GSAx this year (so do Smith and Koski but theirs are admittedly better) but I would bet on him regressing to his norm over the last couple seasons. He's only played 5 games, and the Isles have had one of the toughest schedules in the league (and covid)


That may be, but it's not worth a 1st + a 2nd + a hotter goalie to find out if he regresses to the mean or not. Especially with the risk that is the extra year, when Skinner is no longer waiver exempt and Smith is still under contract.

Not worth the risk. Declined.
29 nov. 2021 à 18 h 11
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Quoting: ragger_lord
Fleury hasn't been playing at Vezina for until very recently this season.

Also, a couple reasons he would get more, one is the fact he has 2 years on his deal so isn't a pure rental, two is his cap hit is less than MAF.

Koskinen has to go back to make the cap work. That's why I threw the second in there. I'm sure NYI would much rather go for a cheaper back-up and use the remaining cap space for something else.


I just don’t see varly getting even a 1st round pick. Goalies almost never do.
29 nov. 2021 à 18 h 47
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Quoting: CD282
Goaltending is NOT holding the Oilers back despite missing their #1 for most of the season so far. There's no way they're trading a guy who is 11-2-0 playing behind a below average defense corps for a guy who is 0-4-0 while playing behind an above average defense corps AND GIVING UP TWO HIGH PICKS.

That's just a terrible deal for Edmonton.

As for next year, Edmonton already has 2 goalies signed, so unless they determine that Smith is going to retire, they probably aren't in the market for a goalie.


Edmonton's goaltending has certainly been a big contributor to the team's 15-5 record, but I am not confident that success will continue. So far this season, the Oilers have averaged almost 4 goals for and 3 goals against per game. On more than one occasion Tippett has mentioned a need to reduce the GA/G, I think he sees what's coming his team's way.

Special teams have allowed the Oilers to cover less than stellar 5v5 scoring to date. In that respect a power play that is scoring at close to 40% has been a blessing, but in a league that encourages officials to "manage the game", a dependence on that great power play may soon become a curse. Its normal for games to tighten up as the season progresses, and for the Oilers this may occur as soon as this week. December brings a tougher schedule than Edmonton has faced so far this season. I anticipate frustrating times ahead for Oiler fans.

Koskinen's statistics this season are better than his career averages, I don't think it is reasonable to expect much more than he has provided to this point. Skinner is a rookie and likely to be sent back to Bakersfield once Mike Smith returns. Smith is a big unknown at this point. He started 3 games before his injury, and his history shows he has been streaky through his career. Clearly he has potential to provide great goaltending, but I expect Ken Holland will make a move if Smith struggles.
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