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long term solutions

Créé par: pharrow
Équipe: 2021-22 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 21 nov. 2021
Publié: 21 nov. 2021
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
TOR needs to come up with real solutions for it's defense if it's going to win a cup.
You can already tell this team is designed to make two cores.
The first one that is now, and another one in 4 years.
The problem is, who will the 2nd core include. While a guy like JT might not be back or if he is back on a much cheaper deal as he'll be 35, Guys like Matthews are going to be paid more. That is if he even sticks around. I have a hard time believing looking at how the team has been run that he will. They can't win with their current strategy. His only real reason for staying would be the money.
They have no depth, the GM has no ability to put depth together. All their "young" players will be on the wrong side of 30 midway into the 2nd core. That's not a good sign.
His friends on the team will probably be gone as there is no way in hell I can see this team signing Marner to another cluster F deal. Furthermore, they will need to find a legit 2C after JT ages out. Which isn't easy to do.
So if this team is going to win, it's probably going to be in the next 3 years.
None of their current prospects or picks are going to help that window. A lot of that starts with the fact that they have drafted poorly.
They have had Matthews for 6 years now.
If you take out Matthews, Marner and Nylander. How many quality draft picks do you see there over the last 6 years?
The over hyped Robertson and basically nothing that really stands out.
It starts by drafting everyone who is 5'9. Which is basically the minimum hockey height because they don't want to tell you a guy is 5'4.
This team needs help on Defense in the next 3 years and it needs it cheap. It starts one piece at a time. It might cost you, but given what else they have done, I don't know how anyone can complain. You gave up a 1st round pick for Nick Foligno, as a rental.
I have to think Dubas is gone for those kind of moves, when the blueline is a joke.
Transactions
TOR
  1. Joseph, Pierre-Olivier
Détails additionnels:
TOR is going nowhere with their current defense.
Their biggest issue is they need guys on the cheap. Odds of teams giving up a young cost controlled defenseman for cheap is nil. Rodion is an OK prospect. He has not really done anything yet. The 1st round pick should be late round.
POJ can be resigned for next to nothing for the next 2 years giving TOR a defenseman at the very least a 3 year player cost controlled to help with their cap.
Given Muzzin's decline it can help solidify their defense. They will still need to find another RD. As what they currently have sucks. But they sure as hell get an upgrade over Holl, Dermott, Sandin, and TL.
Penguins can make this move because they are set at LD long term. I don't see them moving any of their LD, their D is what is carrying the team with all the injuries. It wasn't till the D got injured/covid that the team fell apart.
PIT
  1. Amirov, Rodion
  2. Choix de 1e ronde en 2022 (TOR)
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 0
#1
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You traded for a LD. Long term the Leafs have Rielly and Sandin, who's having a very good sophomore season, there for the foreseeable future. You failed to even have a basic understanding of the problem and aimed to the wrong side.
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 1
#2
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..
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 4
#3
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🤷‍♂️
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 5
#4
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 5
#5
Trad Breliving
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I tried to really think about this, really hard. I did.

but all I could do was laugh.

so thank you for that smile
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 6
#6
Banni
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Work on your bench press bro, saying the 4th best team defensively bad defensively is about as dumb as one can get.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 7
#7
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Banni
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Quoting: Byrr
You traded for a LD. Long term the Leafs have Rielly and Sandin, who's having a very good sophomore season, there for the foreseeable future. You aimed to the wrong side.


Sandin sucks.
I'm sorry have seen enough of this team play to know it needs 4 new defense.
Even Muzzin is not playing well. He looks like a guy about to be 33 that the wear and tear has got to him as he doesn't move right.

This is why the team can not win. TOR fans have clutched on to Holl is a top 4 defenseman, and Sandin and Dermott are legit NHL players.
They are not.
This team needs defense capable of understanding it's responsibility is to shut it down while pushing the puck up ice and letting the forwards generate.
They simply don't have 2nd and 3rd pairs capable of that. Nor will they in the future if the solution is Sandin, TL etc....

They need to make trades for young defensemen that can play the 1st core of this team on the cheap aka 3-4 seasons. If they can't do that just roll it in. They won't win.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 8
#8
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obviously too much for the leafs to pay.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 8
#9
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"Rodion is an OK prospect"

tears of joy
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 9
#10
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Quoting: pharrow
Sandin sucks.
I'm sorry have seen enough of this team play to know it needs 4 new defense.
Even Muzzin is not playing well. He looks like a guy about to be 33 that the wear and tear has got to him as he doesn't move right.

This is why the team can not win. TOR fans have clutched on to Holl is a top 4 defenseman, and Sandin and Dermott are legit NHL players.
They are not.
This team needs defense capable of understanding it's responsibility is to shut it down while pushing the puck up ice and letting the forwards generate.
They simply don't have 2nd and 3rd pairs capable of that. Nor will they in the future if the solution is Sandin, TL etc....

They need to make trades for young defensemen that can play the 1st core of this team on the cheap aka 3-4 seasons. If they can't do that just roll it in. They won't win.


Are you serious??? No way you're serious...
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 9
#11
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Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Work on your bench press bro, saying the 4th best team defensively bad defensively is about as dumb as one can get.


You over here every year with this....... and every year you melt down in the offseason.
Everyone knows the defense is the problem here, but hey, enjoy the exit.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 11
#12
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Quoting: pharrow
Sandin sucks.


Tell me you haven't been watching without telling me you haven't been watching.

Sandin is a kid who has passed both the eye test as well as the analytical test.
xQmfSYG.jpg
One guess who the Leaf running away in this graph is.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 11
#13
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Banni
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Quoting: Nate
Are you serious??? No way you're serious...


I can't be serious......yeah ok, it's because the team is missing "tough guys" like Simmonds and Foligno that they aren't winning when it counts right?

Just give that up. The blue line is awful.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 14
#14
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Quoting: pharrow
I can't be serious......yeah ok, it's because the team is missing "tough guys" like Simmonds and Foligno that they aren't winning when it counts right?

Just give that up. The blue line is awful.


Where did you get that from??? You've traded our second best forward prospect AND a first for POJ. I really like POJ, he is a super sweet player, but our left side is Rielly who is very good, Sandin who has been spectacular aside from a few mishaps, and Muzzin who is off to a slow start but is usually our best defensive defenseman. Even our right side isnt horrible anymore, between Brodie and Liljegren it actually looks good. Dermott is a decent 3rd pair RD option as well. The defense is not the issue by any means, and although POJ is a sick player we dont need him
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 20
#15
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Lmao not a single team would pay a 1st alone for POJ. With Amirov it's just laughable.

And you kept calling POJ an AHLer.

This offer gets at least a bona-fide top 3D
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 22
#16
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pens take this and run. dubas should be fired if he ever considers this
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 35
#17
1-0 them
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why
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 37
#18
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Banni
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Quoting: Byrr
Tell me you haven't been watching without telling me you haven't been watching.

Sandin is a kid who has passed both the eye test as well as the analytical test.
xQmfSYG.jpg
One guess who the Leaf running away in this graph is.


analytics doesn't mean anything. Dominik Simon is a analytics wet dream. It doesn't make him an impact hockey player. Anyone can hold onto the puck. That is never the issue. Playing keep away doesn't put points on the board and that's where those numbers don't mean jack. You got a guy who has 18 games, 4 assists and is a =/- of 0. You want to brag that is "two way dominance" with your, guess who that leaf is on your little chart, are you F ing kidding me?
This is why no one respects leafs fans. Sandin is a "dominate" defender. Those words are things that should never be spoken or even implied. No one believes that to be true. No one. Except leafs fans.

Quoting: Nate
Where did you get that from??? You've traded our second best forward prospect AND a first for POJ. I really like POJ, he is a super sweet player, but our left side is Rielly who is very good, Sandin who has been spectacular aside from a few mishaps, and Muzzin who is off to a slow start but is usually our best defensive defenseman. Even our right side isnt horrible anymore, between Brodie and Liljegren it actually looks good. Dermott is a decent 3rd pair RD option as well. The defense is not the issue by any means, and although POJ is a sick player we dont need him


1st I have admitted off the bat the cost is high. But as I said. No one is giving you a young capable defenseman for nothing. Defense is expensive, it always has been. Getting a guy who is cheap and controlled is even more expensive. People give up a 1st on a rental, you are getting a guy you can get for 3 years at basically league minimum. You think that is coming cheap? It's clearly a 1st and prospect, and you don't have any other prospects that are frankly worth anything.

2nd Amirov while he is your 2nd best forward prospect, is only your 2nd best forward prospect because there is not much else there. He hasn't done anything. There are no eye popping numbers there at all. He's only got 3 games this year. 1 assist. He's 20, and still in the KHL. That right there is frankly stunting his growth. He should be playing with his peers in the AHL where he can actually develop.
Sitting in the KHL is why so many Russian players end up hit or miss even if they had the talent. His trajectory at this point is not all that high.

3rd, another forward isn't going to change the future of this team. Period. If you can't fix your defense, you won't win. Especially one that probably won't even skate for 3 years if ever.
You can mark that. I don't care what you do in the regular season. I don't care what a pack of TOR fans say. We all know where this is going, and we all know why. Being big enough to admit it is what it boils down to. You can recognize the problem or you can run from it. But you got 3-4 year window here and then you are reconstructing this team. If you want to win with this core, you are going to have to fix the defense. Period.

Your not finding teams handing you what you need for nothing. You got defensemen getting signed to outrageous contracts due to need. Teams with young Dmen aren't just forking them over cheap. If at all.
If you can get one, you pay the price. Because on the open market, with the current prices, you'll be stuck with garbage due to your cap.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 40
#19
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I can’t really see the pens and leafs being good trading partners. They both need the same thing. A 3rd pair RHD upgrade. I mean Toronto also needs LW upgrade too but I doubt the pens would be willing to help unless they get a RHD upgrade with term.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 41
#20
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Quoting: pharrow
Sandin sucks.
I'm sorry have seen enough of this team play to know it needs 4 new defense.
Even Muzzin is not playing well. He looks like a guy about to be 33 that the wear and tear has got to him as he doesn't move right.

This is why the team can not win. TOR fans have clutched on to Holl is a top 4 defenseman, and Sandin and Dermott are legit NHL players.
They are not.
This team needs defense capable of understanding it's responsibility is to shut it down while pushing the puck up ice and letting the forwards generate.
They simply don't have 2nd and 3rd pairs capable of that. Nor will they in the future if the solution is Sandin, TL etc....

They need to make trades for young defensemen that can play the 1st core of this team on the cheap aka 3-4 seasons. If they can't do that just roll it in. They won't win.


love it, just love it, POJ is a year older than Sandin and isnt even in his world yet you wanna dump a good prospect and a 1st for him. hilarious
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21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 48
#21
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Quoting: pharrow
analytics doesn't mean anything. Dominik Simon is a analytics wet dream. It doesn't make him an impact hockey player. Anyone can hold onto the puck. That is never the issue. Playing keep away doesn't put points on the board and that's where those numbers don't mean jack. You got a guy who has 18 games, 4 assists and is a =/- of 0. You want to brag that is "two way dominance" with your, guess who that leaf is on your little chart, are you F ing kidding me?
This is why no one respects leafs fans. Sandin is a "dominate" defender. Those words are things that should never be spoken or even implied. No one believes that to be true. No one. Except leafs fans.



1st I have admitted off the bat the cost is high. But as I said. No one is giving you a young capable defenseman for nothing. Defense is expensive, it always has been. Getting a guy who is cheap and controlled is even more expensive. People give up a 1st on a rental, you are getting a guy you can get for 3 years at basically league minimum. You think that is coming cheap? It's clearly a 1st and prospect, and you don't have any other prospects that are frankly worth anything.

2nd Amirov while he is your 2nd best forward prospect, is only your 2nd best forward prospect because there is not much else there. He hasn't done anything. There are no eye popping numbers there at all. He's only got 3 games this year. 1 assist. He's 20, and still in the KHL. That right there is frankly stunting his growth. He should be playing with his peers in the AHL where he can actually develop.
Sitting in the KHL is why so many Russian players end up hit or miss even if they had the talent. His trajectory at this point is not all that high.

3rd, another forward isn't going to change the future of this team. Period. If you can't fix your defense, you won't win. Especially one that probably won't even skate for 3 years if ever.
You can mark that. I don't care what you do in the regular season. I don't care what a pack of TOR fans say. We all know where this is going, and we all know why. Being big enough to admit it is what it boils down to. You can recognize the problem or you can run from it. But you got 3-4 year window here and then you are reconstructing this team. If you want to win with this core, you are going to have to fix the defense. Period.

Your not finding teams handing you what you need for nothing. You got defensemen getting signed to outrageous contracts due to need. Teams with young Dmen aren't just forking them over cheap. If at all.
If you can get one, you pay the price. Because on the open market, with the current prices, you'll be stuck with garbage due to your cap.


Amirov had a genuine chance in a KHL team's top 6 before he sustained an unlucky injury. The guy is a beast and is going to be fantastic. Type all you want, this is a BAD trade
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 50
#22
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Modifié 21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 59
Quoting: pharrow
analytics doesn't mean anything. Dominik Simon is a analytics wet dream. It doesn't make him an impact hockey player. Anyone can hold onto the puck. That is never the issue. Playing keep away doesn't put points on the board and that's where those numbers don't mean jack. You got a guy who has 18 games, 4 assists and is a =/- of 0. You want to brag that is "two way dominance" with your, guess who that leaf is on your little chart, are you F ing kidding me?
This is why no one respects leafs fans. Sandin is a "dominate" defender.


'Anyone can hold on to the puck. That is never the issue. Playing keep away doesn't put points on the board'
Well, no, they can't. That's a massive issue for a lot of NHL players and is one of the leading causes of goals in the NHL. I'm not sure what sport you are watching but its definitely not hockey. Interestingly enough though, a player can keep the puck it is exactly what you were arguing the Leafs need in defenseman. Someone who is able to shutdown players in the defensive zone. Its not hard to see that as 'someone who doesn't turn over the puck.' You are even arguing against yourself at this point.

'You got a guy who has 18 games, 4 assists and is a =/- of 0.'

You don't like analytics, ok. Lets look at this with more basic stats that you seem to be a fan of. Sandin is a 2nd year NHL defenseman who's contributing 1 point every 4 games and playing his opponents evenly. This is the guy you are calling bad, 'not an NHL player', and even the stats you want to use don't back it up.

'This is why no one respects leafs fans.'

The fact your own stats don't even back up your point of view is showing why no one here respects your opinion and its sad you have to try to attack Leafs fans rather than realize when you are wrong.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 52
#23
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Banni
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Quoting: Pensfan89
I can’t really see the pens and leafs being good trading partners. They both need the same thing. A 3rd pair RHD upgrade. I mean Toronto also needs LW upgrade too but I doubt the pens would be willing to help unless they get a RHD upgrade with term.


These teams are already known for working out deals.
While both teams need a 3RD, I would argue TOR needs a whole lot more than a 3RD. That defense is what continues to knee cap this team. And it will later this year when games count.
21 nov. 2021 à 17 h 57
#24
Banni
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Quoting: pharrow
You over here every year with this....... and every year you melt down in the offseason.
Everyone knows the defense is the problem here, but hey, enjoy the exit.


Everyone and your opinion are two things that are not the same. Toronto is top 5 defensively. Reality backs it up. They also kept Montreal to under 2 goals a game in the playoffs. But again, who cares about reality when you can be a troll
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21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 7
#25
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Banni
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Quoting: Byrr
'Anyone can hold on to the puck. That is never the issue.'
Well, no, they can't. That's a massive issue for a lot of NHL players and is one of the leading causes of goals in the NHL. I'm not sure what sport you are watching but its definitely not hockey.

'You got a guy who has 18 games, 4 assists and is a =/- of 0.'

You don't like analytics, ok. Lets look at this with more basic stats that you seem to be a fan of. Sandin is a 2nd year NHL defenseman who's contributing 1 point every 4 games and playing his opponents evenly. This is the guy you are calling bad, 'not an NHL player', and even the stats you want to use don't back it up.

'This is why no one respects leafs fans.'

The fact your own stats don't even back up your point of view here is showing why no one here respects your opinion.


Yawn....
I hate to break it to you, NHL players don't get in trouble holding onto the puck. Teams can easily play keep away. Defensemen can easily hold the puck behind the cage.
Where they fall apart is moving the puck up ice, battling to gain possesion. etc...
Like I said, Simon is an analytics wet dream. If you want a guy who can hold Corsi he's your man, on the cheap too. You know why he's that cheap......he isn't very good at hockey.
He's never gonna be the guy to win you games, maybe help you not lose them(as in, play keep away), but he's not going to win them. You can cry the numbers all day. These are facts.
Passing the puck around isn't the hard part. Point to Point to eat up clock and build your corsi doesn't mean anything.
You can't look at him and say, he creates offense. He does not. You can't look at him and say he stops the opposition rush, he does not. He's the guy who gets beat on it.
You insist on making him more than what he is. "two way dominance" by god, sit down. Next you will want him on the Canadian Olympic team.

My own stats show that he doesn't do much on the ice, let alone display "two way dominance".
Thanks for that, I'll remember that one.
He's not winning games for his team, and he's not "not losing" games for the team either. His 5v5 play is a -1 with twice as many turn overs as takeaways. 3 assists. You're over here trying to turn that into something. It would be one thing if the points were low and he wasn't costing his team goals in 5v5 play. But with the talent on the forward group they have, he shouldn't be a minus in 5v5 play or a 0.
There maybe one day when he's a better NHLer. But that day is not today. There is no real sign there that it's going to be tomorrow.
You can bark up the tree all day but this teams defense is holding it back. But TOR fans are free to think moves like Ritchie and Simmods are the reason it doesn't win.
The problem has been, and continues to be the blue line. They have solved none of it.
 
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