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This will never happen as the GMs treat offer sheets like a bad thing

Créé par: BCAPP
Équipe: 2021-22 Red Wings de Detroit
Date de création initiale: 19 sept. 2021
Publié: 19 sept. 2021
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
It's not worth it for Detroit to make an event likely. But I wish they werent so ridiculous about offersheets and used them regularly. Would be more fun as fans
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Thomas, Robert4 100 000 $
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4 100 000 $4 100 000 $
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894 167 $894 167 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
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3 000 000 $3 000 000 $
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UFA - 2
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1 700 000 $1 700 000 $
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UFA - 1
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3 600 000 $3 600 000 $
G
UFA - 1
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2 000 000 $2 000 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 1
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863 333 $863 333 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
DD
RFA - 3
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850 000 $850 000 $
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RFA - 2

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19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 14
#1
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Thomas would be worth it 100%
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19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 16
#2
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Quoting: Poehling
Thomas would be worth it 100%


I just hate how GM's act like there is an unwritten rule not to do it
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19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 18
#3
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Quoting: BCAPP
I just hate how GM's act like there is an unwritten rule not to do it


Did Carolina not just prove why you dont do it a few months ago?
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 20
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Did Carolina not just prove why you dont do it a few months ago?


Oh 100%. See my title. But that's my complaint. I wish they didn't all treat it like this. It's so silly and petty. It's a part of the CBA for a reason. And shouldn't be some dirty evil thing to do. The NBA does it all the time and they don't even send compensation.

I just wish the GM's didn't act like such baby's for other teams using totally appropriate tools available to them
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 20
#5
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Dundon sent a message loud n clear from All owners, don't.
All they do is spike rfa salaries, which is not good for any owner/gm/team cap.
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 22
#6
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Quoting: Fox_Czar_Cup
Dundon sent a message loud n clear from All owners, don't.
All they do is spike rfa salaries, which is not good for any owner/gm/team cap.


Which sucks as fans. They SHOULD do them.

St Louis tied their hands financially and are going to pressure Thomas to take a small deal because of it but it's silly that a team doesn't come in and sign a fair deal.
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 26
#7
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Quoting: BCAPP
Which sucks as fans. They SHOULD do them.

St Louis tied their hands financially and are going to pressure Thomas to take a small deal because of it but it's silly that a team doesn't come in and sign a fair deal.


I mean Thomas hasn't earned a big deal so I don't think they are entirely in the wrong.

I for one prefer that my teams young players dont get yoinked
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 28
#8
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
I mean Thomas hasn't earned a big deal so I don't think they are entirely in the wrong.

I for one prefer that my teams young players dont get yoinked


I am all for slightly overpaying good young rfas.

I think worst case scenario he's a 3 million dollar player long term. If you can get him to sign for term at 4 million if he continues on this path you get a bargain.

If he turns out awful you can buy him out for 1/3 not 2/3 while he's under 25.

Slightly overpaying good young rfas to get them to sign for term had the best risk/benefit in my opinion
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 37
#9
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Quoting: BCAPP
Which sucks as fans. They SHOULD do them.

St Louis tied their hands financially and are going to pressure Thomas to take a small deal because of it but it's silly that a team doesn't come in and sign a fair deal.


Tight cap next 4yrs (1m per) in an already small team cap league. Most teams are in trouble now, and the rest will be by then also. Fair deal, is to Not give Thomas a long term guaranteed deal now, instead he deserves the Chytil 2x2.3m prove it deal. That is best for the league, fans, gms and owners. If they did it your way, NHL would be basically ELCs & UFAs and all teams caps would be skyrocketing. Simply unrealistic
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19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 40
#10
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Quoting: BCAPP
I am all for slightly overpaying good young rfas.

I think worst case scenario he's a 3 million dollar player long term. If you can get him to sign for term at 4 million if he continues on this path you get a bargain.

If he turns out awful you can buy him out for 1/3 not 2/3 while he's under 25.

Slightly overpaying good young rfas to get them to sign for term had the best risk/benefit in my opinion


As a Leafs fan you are probably all for other teams overpaying their RFA's so that makes sense.

In reality RFA's without arbitration rights very likely haven't done anything to deserve said "slight overpayments." That is why bridge deals are so popular, just because a young player is good that doesn't mean they deserver to eat up a bigger chunk of your cap. Every players goal should always be to win the cup, if taking a team friendly deal early on when you have basically zero leverage in RFA negotiations allows your team to do that then you should do that. Once you've reached those rewards then you can get your big payday. Take Point for example, he very well could have earned 9-10M on his first deal, instead he took a short term team friendly deal that helped the Bolts win 2 back-to-back Stanley Cup rings. Now he has a long term deal already in place for a much higher pay.
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 42
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Quoting: Fox_Czar_Cup
Tight cap next 4yrs (1m per) in an already small team cap league. Most teams are in trouble now, and the rest will be by then also. Fair deal, is to Not give Thomas a long term guaranteed deal now, instead he deserves the Chytil 2x2.3m prove it deal. That is best for the league, fans, gms and owners. If they did it your way, NHL would be basically ELCs & UFAs and all teams caps would be skyrocketing. Simply unrealistic


That's exactly what he's earned the Chytil/Dube contract, per his production and team goals it's exactly what should be expected for his deal
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19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 42
#12
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GM's don't like offer sheets because it gives their RFA's more leverage. That's why most don't use it. It's a gentleman's agreement to keep their own guys without giving them too much leverage.
19 sept. 2021 à 20 h 57
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
As a Leafs fan you are probably all for other teams overpaying their RFA's so that makes sense.

In reality RFA's without arbitration rights very likely haven't done anything to deserve said "slight overpayments." That is why bridge deals are so popular, just because a young player is good that doesn't mean they deserver to eat up a bigger chunk of your cap. Every players goal should always be to win the cup, if taking a team friendly deal early on when you have basically zero leverage in RFA negotiations allows your team to do that then you should do that. Once you've reached those rewards then you can get your big payday. Take Point for example, he very well could have earned 9-10M on his first deal, instead he took a short term team friendly deal that helped the Bolts win 2 back-to-back Stanley Cup rings. Now he has a long term deal already in place for a much higher pay.


I didn't make my point clear.

Look at all of the best deals in the league over the years. They're all on rfas who are signed for term for a little more than their worth.

I'll give you an example from this summer. The ducks signed Comtois to a 2 years at a hair over 2 million.

I think they'd have been better off seeing if he'd have taken 5-6 years at 4 million.

If he continues how he is he likely signs 4-4.5 million on his next contract in 2 years and they saved a bit on the cap in the next two years.

If he improves he gets 5-8 million.

If he regresses and sucks (unlikely) they're off the hook.

Flipside if they sign him for 4 million for term, if he stays as he is he's on a fair deal. If he regresses and sucks his buy out is cheap and costs about 670k as he's under 25. If he continues to improve to a first line winger they have a bargain deal. The best time to gamble on a player is the significantly under 25 because of the special buyout rules

(Note this has nothing to do with something like marner where Dubas just got owned), in that it doesn't apply to guys like Marner, or Tkachuk, or others similar who have already shown their top guys.

It's all about finding those guys who you're fairly confident will be at least a second liner or second pairing and see if you can get him to sign for term
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 0
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
That's exactly what he's earned the Chytil/Dube contract, per his production and team goals it's exactly what should be expected for his deal


This is a separate discussion but the mistake with signing rfas is looking at it with the perspective of what they've earned. That's not the number one question. The number one question is what is best for my team during this next contract and it's a prediction of what they'll do on the next contract using what they've already done.

If you have chytil or Dube and the choose is 2 million for 2 years vs 7 million for 5 years it's easy sign the 2 million.

But if you can get him to sign for 4 million for 5-6 years you should strongly consider it as it could end up being the best deal for your team long term
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 2
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Quoting: Caerii
GM's don't like offer sheets because it gives their RFA's more leverage. That's why most don't use it. It's a gentleman's agreement to keep their own guys without giving them too much leverage.


And gentleman's agreements (or as I put it above unwritten rules) are bull****. And if ever proven would be disallowed for collusion. But of course impossible to prove.
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 3
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Quoting: Fox_Czar_Cup
Tight cap next 4yrs (1m per) in an already small team cap league. Most teams are in trouble now, and the rest will be by then also. Fair deal, is to Not give Thomas a long term guaranteed deal now, instead he deserves the Chytil 2x2.3m prove it deal. That is best for the league, fans, gms and owners. If they did it your way, NHL would be basically ELCs & UFAs and all teams caps would be skyrocketing. Simply unrealistic


Also if it did shift to players getting more money in RFA deals and less in Ufa deals it would likely be better as players primes are usually in RFA. So players would actually be paid their most in RFA instead of overpaid at like 30
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 8
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Quoting: BCAPP
This is a separate discussion but the mistake with signing rfas is looking at it with the perspective of what they've earned. That's not the number one question. The number one question is what is best for my team during this next contract and it's a prediction of what they'll do on the next contract using what they've already done.

If you have chytil or Dube and the choose is 2 million for 2 years vs 7 million for 5 years it's easy sign the 2 million.

But if you can get him to sign for 4 million for 5-6 years you should strongly consider it as it could end up being the best deal for your team long term


Quoting: BCAPP
I didn't make my point clear.

Look at all of the best deals in the league over the years. They're all on rfas who are signed for term for a little more than their worth.

I'll give you an example from this summer. The ducks signed Comtois to a 2 years at a hair over 2 million.

I think they'd have been better off seeing if he'd have taken 5-6 years at 4 million.

If he continues how he is he likely signs 4-4.5 million on his next contract in 2 years and they saved a bit on the cap in the next two years.

If he improves he gets 5-8 million.

If he regresses and sucks (unlikely) they're off the hook.

Flipside if they sign him for 4 million for term, if he stays as he is he's on a fair deal. If he regresses and sucks his buy out is cheap and costs about 670k as he's under 25. If he continues to improve to a first line winger they have a bargain deal. The best time to gamble on a player is the significantly under 25 because of the special buyout rules

(Note this has nothing to do with something like marner where Dubas just got owned), in that it doesn't apply to guys like Marner, or Tkachuk, or others similar who have already shown their top guys.

It's all about finding those guys who you're fairly confident will be at least a second liner or second pairing and see if you can get him to sign for term


Teams generally have a 3 year cup window before retooling/rebuilding if you over spend on RFA's before achieving that goal then you vastly hurt your chances of winning in that window. micromanaging cap space, especially on middle 6 players and signing them to bridge deals is way more important than spending more to lock them up for an extra 2-3 years. It allows you to add more strong players in different parts of your line up. Again the goal is to win the cup, not give a 22 year old more money than what they know what to do with
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 18
#18
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Tbf only RFA wings have to OS is zadina and Lindstrom. Atleast this year. In 3 years tho
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 21
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Teams generally have a 3 year cup window before retooling/rebuilding if you over spend on RFA's before achieving that goal then you vastly hurt your chances of winning in that window. micromanaging cap space, especially on middle 6 players and signing them to bridge deals is way more important than spending more to lock them up for an extra 2-3 years. It allows you to add more strong players in different parts of your line up. Again the goal is to win the cup, not give a 22 year old more money than what they know what to do with


Sure but is Anaheim winning the cup in the next 2 years? They would have been better off with him for term. Is Detroit likely to win the cup in the next two years? It's better to get him locked to term (if they were to offersheet him).

It's all about cap efficiency.

Again name the best contracts in the game. They'll primarily be rfas signed to term on their first deal.
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 25
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Teams generally have a 3 year cup window before retooling/rebuilding if you over spend on RFA's before achieving that goal then you vastly hurt your chances of winning in that window. micromanaging cap space, especially on middle 6 players and signing them to bridge deals is way more important than spending more to lock them up for an extra 2-3 years. It allows you to add more strong players in different parts of your line up. Again the goal is to win the cup, not give a 22 year old more money than what they know what to do with


Ill give you another example. What's the best deal on the flames? Lindholm. Aren't you happy he was signed for 4.9 for term when he was a fourth point player instead of 2.5-3 mil for 2 years then you would have had to give him like 7?
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 27
#21
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Quoting: BCAPP
Also if it did shift to players getting more money in RFA deals and less in Ufa deals it would likely be better as players primes are usually in RFA. So players would actually be paid their most in RFA instead of overpaid at like 30


Within 2yrs, all teams would be maxed out with long term deals, with no openings and stuck with 4 VRask/Sutter/Matheson/Skjei type anchors...
Simply make your favourite team's 23/24/25/26 seasons and see your well dry up fast
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 27
#22
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Quoting: BCAPP
Sure but is Anaheim winning the cup in the next 2 years? They would have been better off with him for term. Is Detroit likely to win the cup in the next two years? It's better to get him locked to term (if they were to offersheet him).

It's all about cap efficiency.

Again name the best contracts in the game. They'll primarily be rfas signed to term on their first deal.


Anaheim is a very specific example, not arguing that one.

As for best contracts, again I get your point, IMO it depends on when you expect to hit your window. Mac's contract is obviously incredible right now, same with Barkov's and Huberdeau's. Some examples that can go the other way though are Turbo, Point, Couts, Zib. There is nothing wrong with a prove it contract if the 2nd one is still not a massive payment
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19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 28
#23
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Quoting: BCAPP
Ill give you another example. What's the best deal on the flames? Lindholm. Aren't you happy he was signed for 4.9 for term when he was a fourth point player instead of 2.5-3 mil for 2 years then you would have had to give him like 7?


Refer to above post, I completely understand where you are coming from, but I do think a deal like Buch's who is on his 3rd deal, will age really well
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19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 31
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Anaheim is a very specific example, not arguing that one.

As for best contracts, again I get your point, IMO it depends on when you expect to hit your window. Mac's contract is obviously incredible right now, same with Barkov's and Huberdeau's. Some examples that can go the other way though are Turbo, Point, Couts, Zib. There is nothing wrong with a prove it contract if the 2nd one is still not a massive payment


Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Refer to above post, I completely understand where you are coming from, but I do think a deal like Buch's who is on his 3rd deal, will age really well


Im just saying that the unique thing about the second contract is that the downsize risk of overpaying is smaller because of the unique buyout window under 25. So the few times it fails you buy your way out and no big deal (like Hodgson in Buffalo).

But the upside is Lindholm.

I think teams focus too much on what someone has earned, but in a cap environment it's way more important what someone will contribute relative to their contract.
19 sept. 2021 à 21 h 36
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Quoting: Fox_Czar_Cup
Within 2yrs, all teams would be maxed out with long term deals, with no openings and stuck with 4 VRask/Sutter/Matheson/Skjei type anchors...
Simply make your favourite team's 23/24/25/26 seasons and see your well dry up fast


I didn't flesh out my point enough as none of those guys would count for what I'm talking about (also I think Sutter was Ufa but I may be mistaken)

The key is if you can sign these deals on 20-22 year olds. Not 23+

If it doesn't work out you have time to use the 1/3 buyout (see Hodgson), if it does work out you get Lindholm, Barkov, Huberdeau, MacKinnon, etc
 
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