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(MTL/ARI) - 2022 conditional 1st round pick and 2024 2nd round pick for Dvorak

Who won the trade?
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 0
#101
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Quoting: habs_fan123
I am in so much pain rn


Look at the Habs roster last year and compare to this year.

Slight downgrade.

Look at the Canes roster last year and compare to this year.

Major downgrade.

Cane fans have more pain to feel.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 4
#102
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Quoting: WallStreet83
I was already thinking about something like this. If KK has a disappointing season and the Hurricanes are not sure if they want to give him at least $6.1m, I wonder if Montreal comes back around and swindles him from Carolina either with yheir own OS or getting him as a UFA. Will be interesting to see.


They key is him and his agent telling the Canes front office no new contract talks until after the season. Than KK holds all the power, with the QO AND the arbitration rights he'll process.

The Canes are stuck playing him 18 minutes a game to gauge his success/failure.
5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 8
#103
MisstheWhalers
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Idk if Montreal massively overpaid, maybe slightly but I dont think too much, there's a lot of comments about Dvorak never reaching 40 points BUT they of course leave out context that he produced at a 44 point pace in the last two Covid shortened seasons.

Dvorak has 4 yeas of term at a reasonable and manageable cap hit, a guy like that isn't being acquired for just a 2nd or a 2nd and 3rd like so many on here think he's worth, another thing that's being overlooked is the 2nd round pick the Habs are sending to Arizona isn't until the 2024 draft, that's a long ways away, even if it ends up being a decent pick the Coyotes aren't likely to see any on ice benefit from that player till 2026, so much could happen by then and no one likely remembers this deal at that point in time.

From an Arizona perspective they did good by getting a 1st and 2nd for Dvorak but the 2nd isn't until the 2024 draft and they traded a guy who's a pretty steady contributor for a scratch ticket, the Yotes are obviously retooling through the draft but for then to really win this trade they're going to need to hit on that 1st round scratch ticket/pick.

No doubt Bergevin backed himself into a corner with this whole situation but it's done now and he made a move that could turn out okay or backfire, time will tell how this ends up.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 10
#104
WentWughes
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Quoting: sensonfire
If that happened, the Canes would offer-sheet Suzuki.

But then the Habs would offer-sheet Necas.

And then the Canes offer-sheet Caufield in the off-season after that.



I'm not sure that we've seen the end of the offer-sheet war between the Habs and the Canes.

If I'm Marc Bergevin, I'd reach out to Tom Dundon and ask if he wants a truce.


Would likely be the otherway around. Montreal has more money than Carolina. It's well known that the Cane's owner is a cheapstake.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 11
#105
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
If KK signs long term for lower than his $6 million OS, than the NHLPA should revoke his membership.

AND Bettman should look into the Canes front office for CBA player contract tampering.


This. This. 100% this.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 11
#106
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Quoting: Ben_Trade_market
The Coyotes got most likely a late lottery pick (somewhere around #12,13) and a second round pick

For Montreal they massively overpaid


Lets go back to the Suzuki and Necas Draft (selected 12th and 13th).

Two picks before them; Tippett and Vilardi
Two picks after them; C. Foote and Brannstrom

2 studs and 4 duds.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 43
#107
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Quoting: sensonfire
Habs lose: Kotkaniemi, Montreal's 2024 2nd, and the higher of their two 1st round picks unless one of them is in the Top 10.

Habs gain: Dvorak, Carolina's 2022 3rd and the lower of their two 1st round picks unless one of them is in the Top 10.



That's assuming the Kotkaniemi offer-sheet is a part of this trade with Arizona.

It's not, however.


You have serious cognitive issues. Enjoy that.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 44
#108
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Would likely be the otherway around. Montreal has more money than Carolina. It's well known that the Cane's owner is a cheapstake.


I hope the Habs strike back at Necas next year.
5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 51
#109
Seamus Casey Stan
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Quoting: sensonfire
I never said the Canes won or lost the trade.

I'm saying the Canes are not included as a voting option on the question "Who won the trade?"

It's because they have nothing to do with it.
Quoting: sensonfire


Ignore the quote thing above this sentence. I don't know how to fix it. Everything below this sentence is my post

My friend, this is your entire argument in a nutshell. Think about what you just wrote. 'The Canes have nothing to do with this trade'.

C'mon, man

If the Canes hadn't offersheeted Kotkaniemi, would the Habs be pursuing another top 6 centerman? Absolutely not.

The reason that this trade happened is because Kotkaniemi left the Habs, are you listening, to go to Carolina, leaving a top 6 center spot open, which the Habs filled by trading for Dvorak mere hours after Kotkaniemi left.

So I, with complete and utter confidence, can say that you are politely incorrect. The Canes had everything to do with this trade.

Please do not respond with 'then why are the canes not a voting option'. Because it's not a direct f***king trade. It is just a chain of events. Just because the Canes are not listed as a voting option on CapFriendly doesn't mean that they had nothing to do with this trade.

Have a wonderful day.
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 53
#110
sensonfire
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Would likely be the otherway around. Montreal has more money than Carolina. It's well known that the Cane's owner is a cheapstake.


Maybe so.

Trading Nedeljkovic and letting Dougie Hamilton walk would suggest that.

That would especially be the case if Dundon hands out signing-bonus money as frequently as Good Ol' Uncle Euge.




But don't you think if Dundon was a cheapskate, then Sebastian Aho would be an esteemed member of the Montreal Canadians?

Or that Svechnikov would not have been allowed sign that massive contract of his?

Or that Kotkaniemi would not have been given a 1 year offer-sheet of 6.1 million?
5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 54
#111
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Overpayment by Montreal. Dvorak is a useful middle-6 C who is locked up at a reasonable cap hit for the next couple of seasons, but has ultimately peaked. Arizona was able to turn a 2nd round reach of a draft choice (Dvorak was ranked in the 70s amongst NA skaters) into what looks like a top-15 1st round pick in a deep draft and another 2nd round pick in 2 years. I wouldn't count on his offensive upside too much as a 2nd line C, to me he is more of a long-term replacement for Danault on the 3rd line. Habs have to hope Poehling develops into something special
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5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 58
#112
sensonfire
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Quoting: mr_z
You have serious cognitive issues. Enjoy that.


And you lash out with petty insults because I helped you see the bigger picture.

Enjoy that.
5 sept. 2021 à 14 h 59
#113
Otter Supremacy
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Quoting: McSchleep
I think you undervalue yotes players, it not at all an overpayment. The best arizona can draft is 11th


Technically not if both picks are top 10. Then they'd just get the worse one.
5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 2
#114
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
They key is him and his agent telling the Canes front office no new contract talks until after the season. Than KK holds all the power, with the QO AND the arbitration rights he'll process.

The Canes are stuck playing him 18 minutes a game to gauge his success/failure.


How do the Canes have a major downgrade??? As someone that like the Canes (Hawks 1st though to be honest), I'm excited. We've finally moved past the disaster that's known and Mrazek/Reimer. We have PLENTY of puck moving Dmen. Hamilton is replaceable. Now we have our #2C for the long term. I'm excited!
5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 6
#115
Former Hockey Fan
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Quoting: exo2769
How do the Canes have a major downgrade??? As someone that like the Canes (Hawks 1st though to be honest), I'm excited. We've finally moved past the disaster that's known and Mrazek/Reimer. We have PLENTY of puck moving Dmen. Hamilton is replaceable. Now we have our #2C for the long term. I'm excited!


I too think the Canes can do well, but Mrazek/Riemer weren’t a distaster by any means, and no matter how good your D is, one of the best defensemen in the NHL is not “replaceable”.
5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 12
#116
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
I too think the Canes can do well, but Mrazek/Riemer weren’t a distaster by any means, and no matter how good your D is, one of the best defensemen in the NHL is not “replaceable”.


Well a couple things. Freddie and Raanta are EACH better than Mrazek/Reimer. Ned on the other hand will be missed. That was a mistake by Waddell. Guys like Slavin and Pesce are horribly underrated. Slavin should get FAR more Norris consideration than he gets. Mrazek has had multiple games where he sees less than 20 shots in a game.

As far as Dougie goes...If you watch CAR closely, you'll see that Dougie's production is because he "cheats" ALOT. When you have other Dmen like Slavin and Pesce to make up for your mistakes....you can "go for it" more often and not be afraid because your team will fix your mistakes. Dougie makes a lot of mistakes on his own end. His version of defense is...jump the blue line to keep the puck in the offensive zone...which is not nothing, BUT he's not very good in his own end. I'm ok NOT paying him $9M. NJD made a mistake in my mind. He's one of the more overrated Dmen in the entire NHL. BUT that's just me.
5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 21
#117
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Modifié 5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 31
Quoting: Remus


You say that I'm politely incorrect but then use coarse language in the next paragraph.

I find that adorable.



In any event, one could argue that the Habs could have got Centreman Jay Beagle from Arizona for a Conditional 7th round pick.

And then claim the Canes had everything to do with that trade.

What you're doing and what a few people have been doing since the trade was posted yesterday is called projection.

Here's a definition of it:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/basics/projection



Carolina did not force Marc Bergevin to go out and get Christian Dvorak.

As GM of the Habs, Bergevin has something called free will.

When it comes to running the Habs, he has free will from everybody except ownership.



The Dvorak trade and the Kotkaniemi offer-sheet are two completely separate events.

Carolina had nothing to do with the Dvorak trade.

Arizona had nothing to do with the Kotkaniemi offer-sheet.

Please try and understand that.



Have a wonderful day
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5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 34
#118
Otter Supremacy
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Imo if Habs truly considered that matching the offer sheet wasn't a realistic option for them, then Habs maximized whatever they could get in replacement to the player they lost.

Many comments here make it sound like Habs traded voluntarily Kotkaniemi for a 1st and 3rd round picks, and then moved that first and a 2nd for Dvorak. However, this was not the case.

Naturally, Habs would've gotten a lot more than 1st+3rd in an actual Kotkaniemi trade. There's no chance they would've move the guy for such a return as he has a lots of promise and is still only 21 years old.

I'd say Habs had two options after the offer sheet. The bad and worse one. Keep Kotkaniemi at a dubious cost or let him go and replace him for whatever they can, most likely by overpaying a bit as teams knew exactly in how much of a pickle Bergevin was in. Only time will tell which one was the bad, and which one was the worse straw Bergevin HAD to pull in this situation.

Getting Dvorak for 1st+2nd isn't ideal, but probably the best course of action, given that Dvorak was probably the best and most accessible long-term inked center in the market...at least at somewhat reasonable price. I personally assumed that he would've cost a lot more actually, given that the availability of 2nd line centers is scarce at best.

Hence, I voted for a fair deal.

For people here considering that if Canes sign Kotkaniemi to a smaller contract, say, 4x4 in January when a new contract can be signed, it should be investigated as violation of rules...this is naïve. This sort of thing, namely an offer sheet with one year term, has never happened during the cap era in the league, so we're facing a completely new situation here. You could say Kotkaniemi is the patient zero of offer sheet business. But as of now, nothing Canes front office is doing is in violation of rules. Is it cheeky? Yes, obviously. But not illegal in any way whatsoever. If it is considered as such, then what's the point of having the offer sheet system in place whatsoever?
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5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 40
#119
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Quoting: sensonfire
And you lash out with petty insults because I helped you see the bigger picture.

Enjoy that.


Nah. You're clearly loaded with bias that blinds your short sighted judgement.

Enjoy that.
5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 44
#120
ActuallySensFlames
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Overpayment
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5 sept. 2021 à 15 h 51
#121
sensonfire
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Quoting: mr_z
Nah. You're clearly loaded with bias that blinds your short sighted judgement.

Enjoy that.


You left out a couple of important details on what Montreal got out of the Dvorak trade and the Kotkaniemi offer-sheet in one big vacuum.

I pointed them out to you.

Arizona had nothing to do with the offer-sheet.

Carolina had nothing to do with the trade.

No need for projection.




You're the one clearly loaded with bias.

You're the one blinded by your short sighted judgement.

Enjoy that.
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5 sept. 2021 à 16 h 22
#122
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Quoting: justaBoss
Imo if Habs truly considered that matching the offer sheet wasn't a realistic option for them, then Habs maximized whatever they could get in replacement to the player they lost.

Many comments here make it sound like Habs traded voluntarily Kotkaniemi for a 1st and 3rd round picks, and then moved that first and a 2nd for Dvorak. However, this was not the case.

Naturally, Habs would've gotten a lot more than 1st+3rd in an actual Kotkaniemi trade. There's no chance they would've move the guy for such a return as he has a lots of promise and is still only 21 years old.

I'd say Habs had two options after the offer sheet. The bad and worse one. Keep Kotkaniemi at a dubious cost or let him go and replace him for whatever they can, most likely by overpaying a bit as teams knew exactly in how much of a pickle Bergevin was in. Only time will tell which one was the bad, and which one was the worse straw Bergevin HAD to pull in this situation.

Getting Dvorak for 1st+2nd isn't ideal, but probably the best course of action, given that Dvorak was probably the best and most accessible long-term inked center in the market...at least at somewhat reasonable price. I personally assumed that he would've cost a lot more actually, given that the availability of 2nd line centers is scarce at best.

Hence, I voted for a fair deal.

For people here considering that if Canes sign Kotkaniemi to a smaller contract, say, 4x4 in January when a new contract can be signed, it should be investigated as violation of rules...this is naïve. This sort of thing, namely an offer sheet with one year term, has never happened during the cap era in the league, so we're facing a completely new situation here. You could say Kotkaniemi is the patient zero of offer sheet business. But as of now, nothing Canes front office is doing is in violation of rules. Is it cheeky? Yes, obviously. But not illegal in any way whatsoever. If it is considered as such, then what's the point of having the offer sheet system in place whatsoever?


I'm pretty sure the Canes were giving the Habs lowball offers when the 2 sides were talking trade. So....I strongly believe a 1st and 3rd was higher.

If there is evidence of any conversations or texts to prove their was a handshake agreement, on the sign for a high 1 year deal and than extend at a cheaper rate, before KK signed the offer sheet than YES that's cheating when KK was still a Hab property. Also the NHLPA would strongly disapprove of KK taking an unforced discount at such a young age.
5 sept. 2021 à 16 h 43
#123
Otter Supremacy
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
I'm pretty sure the Canes were giving the Habs lowball offers when the 2 sides were talking trade. So....I strongly believe a 1st and 3rd was higher.

If there is evidence of any conversations or texts to prove their was a handshake agreement, on the sign for a high 1 year deal and than extend at a cheaper rate, before KK signed the offer sheet than YES that's cheating when KK was still a Hab property. Also the NHLPA would strongly disapprove of KK taking an unforced discount at such a young age.


Well according to the reports there has been no such violations...although I'm kinda interested in how could that even be supervised honestly.

Canes trade offers for KK might have been low because they knew they had the offer sheet options awaiting.
5 sept. 2021 à 18 h 33
#124
GoJetsGo
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Quoting: Devil1122
Arizona is having a very underrated offseason


They've arguably had the best offseason of any team. Them, New Jersey and Florida are at the top of my list this year.
5 sept. 2021 à 19 h 11
#125
Pete
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This is a loose-loose deal for both trade partners.
 
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