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This Team is Not Playoff Bound Thanks MB

Créé par: Campabee
Équipe: 2021-22 Canadiens de Montréal
Date de création initiale: 4 sept. 2021
Publié: 4 sept. 2021
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Gonna be honest, no matter what way you look at it Montreal came out of this looking like idiots! First the OS to Aho was a joke, then they get schooled by Carolina on how to tender an OS and then MB's announcement of letting KK go was just a simple put your tail between your legs and sulk away. Then preceding to overpay for a 3rd line center because he is a moron that screwed the team multiple times over 10 years. Gonna be honest here I fully expect Carolina to OS either Suzuki or Caufield in the next 2 years.
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TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2381 500 000 $68 637 977 $597 561 $1 475 000 $12 862 023 $
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894 167 $894 167 $ (Bonis de performance637 500 $$638K)
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Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 48
#1
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To be honest I don't see Montreal as a true contender either, but I do think they actually improved their team today by swapping out Kotkaniemi with Dvorak. Dvorak is the better player for sure. And the OS thing is done now. Bergevin started a war, Waddell just finished it. Either side would be foolish to continue it because that's no way to build a team. I bet Waddell regrets the OS now anyway.
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 49
#2
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But don’t worry we’ll pick 11 cuz we’re not **** enough for a Top 10 pick

And Arizona gets our pick…great

The middle ****ing sucks
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 49
#3
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Quoting: MauriceRichard1028
To be honest I don't see Montreal as a true contender either, but I do think they actually improved their team today by swapping out Kotkaniemi with Dvorak. Dvorak is the better player for sure. And the OS thing is done now. Bergevin started a war, Waddell just finished it. Either side would be foolish to continue it because that's no way to build a team. I bet Waddell regrets the OS now anyway.


Waddell got the better player just look at the advanced stats! KK is a possession monster compared to Dvorak.
4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 51
#4
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And 3 months ago he was in the run for the best gm pin the NHL
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 51
#5
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Who would you rather have?
5G 15A 20P $6.1M x 1.
Notable Linemates Anderson and Drouin/Byron
Or
17G 14A 31P $4.45M x 4.
Notable Linemates Fischer and Crouse
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 53
#6
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Quoting: HockeyFan989
And 3 months ago he was in the run for the best gm pin the NHL


Not by me, MB is one of the worst GM's in terms of asset management and player development. He has a tendency of lowering his players value right before he tries to move them then overpay for a player he gets to fill a hole he created.
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 54
#7
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Quoting: Campabee
Waddell got the better player just look at the advanced stats! KK is a possession monster compared to Dvorak.


Advanced stats are a nice tool, but dont ignore the eye-test. KK in playoffs didn't show enough to earn the trust of Bergevin for a role on his top 6.

He's still very young so I cant believe he wont progress, but the advanced stats of KK aren't reflecting well his last season IMO
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 55
#8
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Quoting: McSchleep
Who would you rather have?
5G 15A 20P $6.1M x 1
Or
17G 14A 31P $4.45M x 4


I would rather have the 21 y.o. who has the potential to be a true 2C than the 25 y.o. who has hit his ceiling as a 3C and is below average in possession numbers.
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 56
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Quoting: Campabee
I would rather have the 21 y.o. who has the potential to be a true 2C than the 25 y.o. who has hit his ceiling as a 3C and is below average in possession numbers.


Oh so the overpaid third line center, who hasnt proven much since his rookie season? Ok
4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 59
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Quoting: MauriceRichard1028
To be honest I don't see Montreal as a true contender either, but I do think they actually improved their team today by swapping out Kotkaniemi with Dvorak. Dvorak is the better player for sure. And the OS thing is done now. Bergevin started a war, Waddell just finished it. Either side would be foolish to continue it because that's no way to build a team. I bet Waddell regrets the OS now anyway.


Agreed 100%.

Dvorak is the better player in virtually every metric. KK might be better in the future, we'll have to wait and see but right now the Habs are better with Dvorak than with KK.
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4 sept. 2021 à 21 h 59
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Quoting: McSchleep
Oh so the overpaid third line center, who hasnt proven much since his rookie season? Ok


10 goals in 29 playoff games. BTW that's 10 more than Dvorak has EVER had! This has all the makings to be another Droui/Sergachev situation.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 0
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Quoting: Campabee
Not by me, MB is one of the worst GM's in terms of asset management and player development. He has a tendency of lowering his players value right before he tries to move them then overpay for a player he gets to fill a hole he created.


This however is painstakingly true.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 1
#13
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@Campabee this is getting pretty old from you.

Was the sky falling a week ago? No? MTL just definitely upgraded in the short term, Dvorak is an obvious upgrade over KK right now so why weren't you freaking out a week ago?

Before all of this I compared KK to Couturier in the sense that it sometimes takes time for players to produce in the NHL. In the case of Couturier he did not break 40 pts until he was 25 years old when he jumped from 33 pts to 75 pts in just one year. I argued that if MTL bridged KK for 2 years they could likely lock him up long term before he hits his prime in his mid-twenties just like Couturier... although when I made this argument I didn't have KK making $6M for at least 8 years so that is where the value would of have came from for KK. The moment Carolina made the offersheet this all changed... KK would not have provided positive value @ $6.1M a year for several years.

Now you have Dvorak, who you are really quick to s*** on. A "3rd line C"... he played 18 min / game last season for the low scoring ARZ and put up 31 pts in 56 games. His 1.8 P/60 is an upgrade over KK's 1.4 P/60 and it was also better than Couturier's 1.6 P/60 as a 24 year old before he broke out. Coincidentally, Dvorak is 24 years old, and he's primed to break out in MTL in a big way. He will be the PP1 bumper, he will play important PK minutes, and he will likely play with Gallagher which is the most important 5v5 line. Think Phil Danault but good on the PP.

As a young player Dvorak put up 120 pts (50+ goals) with the London Knights leading the team (and outproducing linemates Marner and M. Tkachuk who were 1 and 2 years younger respectively).

KK is no more of a guarantee than Dvorak was, at least Dvorak can be relied on, is better than KK right now, and makes less $$$.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 3
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Quoting: F50marco
Agreed 100%.

Dvorak is the better player in virtually every metric. KK might be better in the future, we'll have to wait and see but right now the Habs are better with Dvorak than with KK.


Really? How far did Dvorak help Arizona go in the playoffs this passed year? Right, he helped them miss the playoffs! Now how far did KK help Montreal go? Right, he was instrumental in helping the Habs get to the SCF! That definitely makes Dvorak the better player cause what teams goal is to get to the SCF?!
4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 3
#15
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Wow so much negative on here. Dvorak is an upgrade to kotkaniemi. I like this.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 4
#16
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Wow so much negative on here. Dvorak is an upgrade to kotkaniemi. I like this.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 4
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Quoting: Campabee
10 goals in 29 playoff games. BTW that's 10 more than Dvorak has EVER had! This has all the makings to be another Droui/Sergachev situation.


how many times has dvorak been in the playoffs? Did you by chance watch the yotes vs avs series? No one could score. Dvorak is a huge upgrade over KK. idk why your upset. KK may be younger okay, but we also said that Yakupov would bounce back and that he has huge potential.
4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 7
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Quoting: Campabee
Really? How far did Dvorak help Arizona go in the playoffs this passed year? Right, he helped them miss the playoffs! Now how far did KK help Montreal go? Right, he was instrumental in helping the Habs get to the SCF! That definitely makes Dvorak the better player cause what teams goal is to get to the SCF?!


I know your emotional right now but that argument is you cracking from your normally cool and calm self. That has to be one of the worst arguments for or against a player I've ever seen.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 13
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Quoting: Habs4ever
Wow so much negative on here. Dvorak is an upgrade to kotkaniemi. I like this.


Same feeling here. I like it with the context that Bergevin put the team in a bad spot and got exposed by Dundon.

Dvorak is an upgrade right now, so thumbs up for that. but in terms of asset management, this whole situation is a huge L
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 16
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Quoting: Shanesaw9
Campabee this is getting pretty old from you.

Was the sky falling a week ago? No? MTL just definitely upgraded in the short term, Dvorak is an obvious upgrade over KK right now so why weren't you freaking out a week ago?

Before all of this I compared KK to Couturier in the sense that it sometimes takes time for players to produce in the NHL. In the case of Couturier he did not break 40 pts until he was 25 years old when he jumped from 33 pts to 75 pts in just one year. I argued that if MTL bridged KK for 2 years they could likely lock him up long term before he hits his prime in his mid-twenties just like Couturier... although when I made this argument I didn't have KK making $6M for at least 8 years so that is where the value would of have came from for KK. The moment Carolina made the offersheet this all changed... KK would not have provided positive value $6.1M a year for several years.

Now you have Dvorak, who you are really quick to s*** on. A "3rd line C"... he played 18 min / game last season for the low scoring ARZ and put up 31 pts in 56 games. His 1.8 P/60 is an upgrade over KK's 1.4 P/60 and it was also better than Couturier's 1.6 P/60 as a 24 year old before he broke out. Coincidentally, Dvorak is 24 years old, and he's primed to break out in MTL in a big way. He will be the PP1 bumper, he will play important PK minutes, and he will likely play with Gallagher which is the most important 5v5 line. Think Phil Danault but good on the PP.

As a young player Dvorak put up 120 pts (50+ goals) with the London Knights leading the team (and outproducing linemates Marner and M. Tkachuk who were 1 and 2 years younger respectively).

KK is no more of a guarantee than Dvorak was, at least Dvorak can be relied on, is better than KK right now, and makes less $$$.


@Shanesaw9 don't like my posts feel free not to comment on them or read them. I have just as much right to post my opinions and threads as anyone else on this site.

I agree that at 6 Mil KK is overpaid but his ceiling is also much higher than Dvoraks, at worse KK ends up as Dvoraks equal. The key for me is the mismanagement of the asset. I know his QO at the end of the season is set to be 6.1 but Montreal could have used the first window to file for arbitration or they could have worked out a longer term deal at a lower cap hit. They already invested the time and assets to begin his development why not wait and see whether those efforts paid off? It was 1 year at a high cap hit when we had the room to accommodate it. From an asset management stand point he failed again. I am not saying Dvorak sucks I am saying we gave up too soon on the better player. Ideally I would have liked to keep KK and add Dvorak as the 3C. Even with Hall and Kessel on his wings Dvorak couldn't hit 50 points. That is why I say he is a 3C cause if you can't put up 2C numbers with top 6 wingers your not a 2C.
4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 26
#21
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This team improved up front regardless of the KK/Dvorak swap. The real cause for concern is the downgrade on D. The Weber situation isn't MB's fault, and a downgrade is all but inevitable with the prices on top D this off season.

The larger point is valid however. This team should be in much better shape. Center and puck moving D are far from new needs, and not moving any of our failed 1st round picks when they still had value, in order to address those needs, are inexcusable lapses from MB (and the scouting staff).
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 26
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@campabee

Truth is matching didn't make any sense and I think you actually do agree with this. Kotkaniemi didn't really want to return. Him returning would have been an awkward situation for everyone. He wasn't happy with his development, wasn't happy with his ice time, wasn't happy being scratched, wasn't happy with his QoL...etc etc etc etc. Management wasn't happy with his outspokeness, coaches weren't happy with his work ethic/performance, fans weren't happy with his accepting of the OS. etc etc etc.

The relationship deteriorated to the point of the player not being really welcome back. By the GM. By the coach. By some fans. By probably some of his line mates too.

Regardless of whether you think that is MB's fault or Ducharmes fault, whatever, that doesn't change the fact that what's done is done. There was no realistic returning to this team for KK.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 30
#23
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Quoting: ricochetii
This team improved up front regardless of the KK/Dvorak swap. The real cause for concern is the downgrade on D. The Weber situation isn't MB's fault, and a downgrade is all but inevitable with the prices on top D this off season.

The larger point is valid however. This team should be in much better shape. Center and puck moving D are far from new needs, and not moving any of our failed 1st round picks when they still had value, in order to address those needs, are inexcusable lapses from MB (and the scouting staff).


And when exactly did tinordi/mccarron/juulsen/scherbak have value? It’s not his fault our drafting fkn sucks. This whole debacle is on timmins. We hit on a draft pick once every decade
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 31
#24
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Quoting: Campabee
Shanesaw9 don't like my posts feel free not to comment on them or read them. I have just as much right to post my opinions and threads as anyone else on this site.

I agree that at 6 Mil KK is overpaid but his ceiling is also much higher than Dvoraks, at worse KK ends up as Dvoraks equal. The key for me is the mismanagement of the asset. I know his QO at the end of the season is set to be 6.1 but Montreal could have used the first window to file for arbitration or they could have worked out a longer term deal at a lower cap hit. They already invested the time and assets to begin his development why not wait and see whether those efforts paid off? It was 1 year at a high cap hit when we had the room to accommodate it. From an asset management stand point he failed again. I am not saying Dvorak sucks I am saying we gave up too soon on the better player. Ideally I would have liked to keep KK and add Dvorak as the 3C. Even with Hall and Kessel on his wings Dvorak couldn't hit 50 points. That is why I say he is a 3C cause if you can't put up 2C numbers with top 6 wingers your not a 2C.


I respect your opinion, and its easier to understand when it's a level headed one.

I won't argue it, KK was terribly mismanaged in MTL to the point where he only regressed since he was a rookie and he played like a bottom 6 forward whobalready needed waivers at 20 years old. They really botched KK's development and it's inexcusable I agree. So I understand the frustration, but I already got that out of my system last season.

I was ready to see what KK could do with the opportunity as 2C in MTL this year, however the offersheet changed everything... and given the circumstances I think Bergevin did OK. I don't think your assumptions about KK with the QO or long term extension for a lesser amount would have came true.

1. KK signed the offersheet, he's already proven he will take the money when he can get it so he's not going to take the discount.
2. I don't think either side wants to deal with arbitration, that would be a terrible outcome and KK might even pursue another offersheet if it came to that.

On Dvoraks production with Hall and Kessel:
- No one produces with ARZ.
- Hall is no longer a top player.
- Kessel is definitely washed up.

I would argue Hoffman and Gallagher would be upgrades right now.

So I guess I just disagree with the title "This Team is Not Playoff Bound thanks MB". It implies that because KK was replaced with Dvorak that MTL will miss playoffs when the reality is if they are going to miss playoffs it would have happened either way.
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4 sept. 2021 à 22 h 33
#25
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I love how on here literally a day ago, ppl across the board had Dvorak being traded to the habs for a top prospect, roster player, a couple 1sts and it STILL wasn’t good enough for most Arizona fans and trolls alike. Now all of a sudden, Berg pulls off another coups from a position of weakness, a la the whole Pacioretty ordeal, and instead of praising this genius, you decide to **** on him. Bravo sir. You are truly smtg else
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