Adding One More Defenseman Discussion

Rejoint: mai 2019

Messages: 19,623

Mentions "j'aime": 7,360

Quoting: BallPuckFellow10

Parayko has declined a lot not a little. Ask Blues fans that, and if they would be comfortable offering him an 8 year extension. I think most reasonable fans would say no. Parayko is not better now than what both of those two players were at the peak of their powers. Both of them have regressed now, but when Skjei was traded his value was very high and so was his reputation. Maybe not as high as Parayko's is now, but in the same ball park. As for Savard, you clearly never watched him play. 2 seasons ago he was literally the best defensive defenseman in the league, or close to that. That year Columbus upset and swept the big favorites Tampa. Savard was a huge part of that but all the credit obviously goes to Jones and Werenski and not him. I suggest you watch some of his clips from that year and look at his analytics. He was a beast.

who is talking about giving a guy who will be 29 this season an 8 year extension? that has nothing to do with how good he is now and his value at the deadline. Clearly you have never watched him play, 2 seasons ago he was quite good defensivly but never near best in the league status (what you saw was goaltending going nuts), The difference between him and Savard is that savard was never even a top end defensive guy, he's never been close to what parayko even is now and only excelled in tampa because they played him as a depth defender against weak comp. He was 6th in ice time behind Rutta during the playoffs.

23 août 2021 à 16 h 35

#52

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Quoting: IconicHawk

So if the full cap hit is 3,850,000 why can’t the Blackhawks sign him for more then that it’s not like Fleury will resign with us next season

They can resign him in free agency. It would just be a good move for the Blackhawks to get assets for him if they are out of playoff contention and the possibly circling back for him in the summer. They also have Ian Mitchell coming up, someone who will continue to play on the third pair this year before it likely for him to take another step and becoming a 2nd pairing guy. Resigning Murphy could possibly stunt his path.

23 août 2021 à 16 h 48

#53

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Modifié 23 août 2021 à 17 h 24

Quoting: JaredOfLondon

Well, if the Blues are going to keep him they are going to extend him. He is likely going to ask for a long term deal or go to free agency. If he goes to free agency, the Blues loses him for nothing. This example is contingent on the Blues being out of the playoff picture. I don't think they trade him if they are in the mix. Parayko was never the number # 1 guy. Always a number #2. In Pietrangel'so last season with the Blues he declined a lot and even after becoming the Blues #1 defenseman he has struggled significantly. He was elite playing with Bouwmeester but has arguably struggled badly since he retired. The season I was referring to when his number were insane Bobrovsky had a .913 and Korpisalo had .897. Far from those goaltending stats you referred to as nuts. In the playoffs Bobrovsky was a .925 which is great but not nuts in any way. Savard wasn't asked to come to Tampa to play heavy minutes, he was asked to come in and play exceptionally in those few ones he got. The same would be expected for Parayko. He could play 2nd pair minutes with Muzzin or even on the third pair with Sandin if they don't want to change the current pairs.

23 août 2021 à 16 h 53

#54

swinny

Rejoint: mars 2017

Messages: 4,787

Mentions "j'aime": 2,007

Quoting: JaredOfLondon

when was the last time a defender as good as Parayko was moved at the deadline?

Shattenkirk? Be the closest I can come up with

BallPuckFellow10 a aimé ceci.

23 août 2021 à 16 h 54

#55

Rejoint: avr. 2017

Messages: 19,026

Mentions "j'aime": 9,322

Quoting: JaredOfLondon

murphy is 'better' than those guys, but he still fills the same niche. Slow, zero ability to get the puck out of the zone and expensive for what he brings in both assets and cap hit, so he isnt a fit.
And if Parayko goes for just slightly more than foligno did last year, i will be very very surprised.

Your assessment is terrible of Murphy, you don't know what you're talking in evaluating him

23 août 2021 à 16 h 58

#56

swinny

Rejoint: mars 2017

Messages: 4,787

Mentions "j'aime": 2,007

Quoting: BallPuckFellow10

I don't disagree at all. They could do this to really see who sticks long term, but it would also not really be fair to someone like Liljegren to never get a chance to play an extended run of games. But I see how you are thinking and don't think it is unrealistic at all.

This extended run you speak of is a result of seasons being cut short due to injury. His development was stalled.

Is he ready? Maybe. Just don't see the need to go big game hunting unless Reilly is involved. It will completely decimate the system, which is never good.

All you have to do is look at San Jose. Karlsson was one trade to many. Wiped out picks and any roster depth they had left. Gonna be a long road for them.

I don't want this in Toronto. Rebuilds happen. But the system has to he up and running for it to work in shorter order. What your throwing out here bites the Leafs in the a$$ in 3 years.

oneX a aimé ceci.

23 août 2021 à 17 h 1

#57

Rejoint: avr. 2017

Messages: 19,026

Mentions "j'aime": 9,322

Quoting: JaredOfLondon

what? I said that he'd be worth it if the cost to get him was cheap, like a 6th rounder and not a hilarious over payment like a 1st rounder plus. He isnt near good enough nor does he move the needle remotly close to that value on top of him making way too much money for a guy who is, at best, as good as Justin Holl

You think Holl is better then Murphy? LMAO You are so not aware of who Murphy is. How many Blackhawks games did you watch last season? That's an honest question

23 août 2021 à 17 h 1

#58

Rejoint: mai 2019

Messages: 19,623

Mentions "j'aime": 7,360

Quoting: ChiHawk

Your assessment is terrible of Murphy, you don't know what you're talking in evaluating him

from how you talk about and evaluate leafs players i take that as a compliment

23 août 2021 à 17 h 2

#59

Rejoint: mai 2019

Messages: 19,623

Mentions "j'aime": 7,360

Quoting: ChiHawk

You think Holl is better then Murphy? LMAO You are so not aware of who Murphy is. How many Blackhawks games did you watch last season? That's an honest question

probably about 25-30, clearly you arnt aware who Holl is. How many Leafs games did you watch last season? That's an honest question

23 août 2021 à 17 h 4

#60

Rejoint: avr. 2017

Messages: 19,026

Mentions "j'aime": 9,322

Quoting: JaredOfLondon

from how you talk about and evaluate leafs players i take that as a compliment

I actually watch a fair amount of Leafs games, second only to the Blackhawks. You clearly don't watch Murphy AT ALL. To suggest Holl is better then Murphy is laughable, but I'm not surprised coming from you....part of the Leaf fans problems on here.

TheFlamingC a aimé ceci.

23 août 2021 à 17 h 4

#61

Rejoint: avr. 2017

Messages: 19,026

Mentions "j'aime": 9,322

Quoting: JaredOfLondon

probably about 25-30, clearly you arnt aware who Holl is. How many Leafs games did you watch last season? That's an honest question

You are FULL OF IT....as usual. Not even worth responding to with the ignorant comments you're making on here about Murphy...I'm done

23 août 2021 à 17 h 7

#62

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Quoting: swinny

Fair point. I just don't think it really is the same as the Sharks situation. I don't see the Leafs resigning any of these players unless Rielly walks. This is just primary as playoff insurance. And in the Sharks case, they had two elite offensive defenseman that kind of took away the spot light from each other. The guys I suggested would be defense first type of players which should be easier to fit in as they don't need their cookies (points) like offensive defenseman do. I just really believe they are there with one more solid defenseman addition. I understand if people disagree and can prove why they do, just like you have done.

23 août 2021 à 17 h 13

#63

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Quoting: swinny

Shattenkirk? Be the closest I can come up with

Yes, and that trade is pretty much exactly what I said, a 1st, 2nd and a prospect (Sanford was far from what he is today). There where some other pieces in the deal as well, but that was the the base of the trade.

23 août 2021 à 17 h 23

#64

Rejoint: mai 2019

Messages: 19,623

Mentions "j'aime": 7,360

Quoting: ChiHawk

Clearly you dont watch eithet player if you disagree with me, such a laughable position, but im not surprised coming from uou
...part of thr hawks fans problems on here.

23 août 2021 à 17 h 23

#65

Rejoint: mai 2019

Messages: 19,623

Mentions "j'aime": 7,360

Quoting: ChiHawk

You are FULL OF IT....as usual. Not even worth responding to with the ignorant comments you're making on here about Murphy...I'm done

You should try watching the games, then you'd know what you are talking about

23 août 2021 à 19 h 22

#66

oneX

Rejoint: mars 2019

Messages: 2,776

Mentions "j'aime": 2,622

Quoting: BallPuckFellow10

Are those guys worth bringing in over giving Liljegren a chance as the 7th D option? In my personal opinion, I don't think so. I think they should go big and try to land one of the big boys. This might be their last run with this forward core as well as our defensive core with Rielly, Muzzin and Brodie. I think this is the year to go all in and if we only have two draft picks in next years draft, I personally would be fine with it. I think Dubas would have done his job and all the blame for a failure should be on either the coach or players depending on how we would lose.

I'm quite late to this discussion but I want to start off by saying that regardless of how you feel about options from other teams, I don't believe Lilijegren is as good as you or other Leafs fans think. He is a good option for filling in for a few games here and there because of injuries but as a regular? Nope not IMO.

Also I know I'm going to take heat for saying this much like @Laudan has for a while, but whatever, Holl is really a 3rd pair D on a true contender. This is why I feel the defence needs improvement.

Your thoughts?

23 août 2021 à 19 h 39

#67

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Quoting: oneX

I'm quite late to this discussion but I want to start off by saying that regardless of how you feel about options from other teams, I don't believe Lilijegren is as good as you or other Leafs fans think. He is a good option for filling in for a few games here and there because of injuries but as a regular? Nope not IMO.

Also I know I'm going to take heat for saying this much like Laudan has for a while, but whatever, Holl is really a 3rd pair D on a true contender. This is why I feel the defence needs improvement.

Your thoughts?

Firstly, thanks for posting!
I have to say that I disagree with your analysis on Liljegren. I think he is ready to be an NHL defenseman. He has matured a lot since he came over, he has had time to grow into his body (Search up pictures of how big he has become) and he has also been a bit unlucky with injuries and having people in front of him. I agree that 2 seasons ago, he didn't really look ready, but at the AHL level he has been so dominant. I really suggest you go and watch his highlights. He controls the game very well. I think peoples expectation of him being a dynamic offensive presence is wrong. He is solid defensively and kills penalties. He is going to be a solid puck mover and likely caps out as #4 defenseman on a good team in his prime. For the time being, I think he is fine as a 3rd pairing guy. Last year he was arguably ready as well. He only got to play two games but looked really good doing so. Bogosian was obviously ahead of him on the right side and he couldn't get ahead of Sandin or Dermott on the left. I think he would be fine this season as the 7th option and becoming a regular top 6 player in the 2022-2023 season. I like his game a lot. He isn't fast but is a smooth skater, has great stick checking ability and reads the game well. He moves the puck exceptionally well but I think early on he wasn't decisive enough. That has now changed. Before last season John Tavares said on an interview that Liljegren was the player that impressed him the most during camp. Just unfortunate that he never really got a chance.

As for Justin Holl, I tend to agree with you. He really improved when he got the confidence to be an NHL regular and took that chance with both hands. He has looked fine next to Muzzin and was solid 2 seasons ago and was solid again overall this year. He started the season on fire and was awesome but slowed down and looked worse the further the season went along. I don't know if that was a fatigue issue. He averaged 21:04 last season on a defense that was tied for the 7th best in the whole league. I think he is capable of playing top 4 minutes, especially with a partner like Muzzin, however, if we are to go the whole way, he would be awesome to have on the 3rd pair with Sandin. I really think the Leafs should go all in on a top 4 defenseman this year either early on if they become available or at the TDL.

Again, thanks for posting, looking forward to your response.

oneX a aimé ceci.

23 août 2021 à 20 h 51

#68

swinny

Rejoint: mars 2017

Messages: 4,787

Mentions "j'aime": 2,007

Quoting: BallPuckFellow10

You don't go big game hunting and move assets like that without wanting lock them up. After Fpligno, that won't sit well with the more intelligent fan base.

I respect where you are coming from. @oneX has pointed out Holl is really a 3rd paring guy on other contending teams (or maybe he is rhe Marc Methot type?) Sure he could be upgraded. But, that isn't something you do with picks at this point.

That's an upgrade made by moving Marner. But that opens up the whole Big 4 debate lol

oneX a aimé ceci.

23 août 2021 à 21 h 3

#69

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Quoting: swinny

You don't go big game hunting and move assets like that without wanting lock them up. After Fpligno, that won't sit well with the more intelligent fan base.

I respect where you are coming from. oneX has pointed out Holl is really a 3rd paring guy on other contending teams (or maybe he is rhe Marc Methot type?) Sure he could be upgraded. But, that isn't something you do with picks at this point.

That's an upgrade made by moving Marner. But that opens up the whole Big 4 debate lol

I think someone like Murphy could be extended and be used in the top 4 on a cheaper deal than Rielly would command. I think it would be smart move to get a replacement before they hit the open market. I don't think they have to move anyone from the core this year I think they should go all in. They could possible add some late round picks if they trade away Rielly's rights if they know they won't resign him and also get draft assets from someone like Kerfoot and replace him in free agency. I think the Leafs 100% should go for something like this.

I appreciate your concern for spending big, it can go really wrong, but Tampa has proved it can be done if you do it correctly on the right type of players.

oneX a aimé ceci.

24 août 2021 à 1 h 46

#70

oneX

Rejoint: mars 2019

Messages: 2,776

Mentions "j'aime": 2,622

Quoting: BallPuckFellow10

Lilijegren has looked fantastic in the AHL and that's great but the Leafs need him to be fantastic at NHL level and that has not happened. Both Lilijegren and Sandin struggled with the physical play at the NHL level every time they were in the lineup and that is something that has to improve if either of these guys are going to factor into the Leafs playoffs success. I remember the last shift Sandin had in the playoffs vs Montreal and it just wasn't good enough.

If you agree that the team is in "win-now" mode, the team definitely can't afford shifts like last one Sandin had. This is exactly why I'm not brimming with confidence around the D core.

Holl has improved alot over the last 3 seasons but I still feel that on a true contender he's a 3rd pair D but he's playing 2nd pair minutes, it is what it is. Perhaps Dubas has to take some blame for not rounding out the team better overall but right now this D core doesn't seem like Stanley Cup caliber.

BallPuckFellow10 a aimé ceci.

24 août 2021 à 5 h 20

#71

Démarrer sujet

Rejoint: août 2020

Messages: 1,143

Mentions "j'aime": 471

Quoting: oneX

I agree with your concerns over Sandin and Liljegren's lack of ability to deal with the physicality of the playoffs. However, I think this past season was a great learning tool for Sandin. He will be bigger when he comes in for camp and better equipped to deal with that physical presence. I don't really have any problems with him, I just think it what the natural progression looks like for a player like him. As for Liljegren, he did look good in those two games. If you search up pictures from him this summer, you will see how much he has bulked up. He is now equipped with an NHL frame which is great to see. He will be good as a 7th option this year IMO.

I don't disagree with what you are saying regarding Holl. He can play top 4 minutes but maybe is better equipped to play on the third pair. This is why I am suggesting that the Leafs go all in on a top 4 defenseman to secure that backend. Ekholm is someone that should be available this season and is also someone I would love the Leafs to go after.

24 août 2021 à 13 h 39

#72

Trickster

hey look a squirrel

Rejoint: mai 2018

Messages: 6,050

Mentions "j'aime": 3,754

Before now I never stopped to check how bad defensively the Hawks have been.
If you dont know, go look.

Like it or not, Murphy is part of that.
Yes he is not the only D on the Hawks but if was good, wouldnt that be reflected on the team defense?

Best part is they just added a defensive black hole in Jones.
Maybe he will better Chicago than he was the last two years in Columbus.

I would like the Leafs to add a defensive guy to the Leafs for depth, who that is not an easy answer due to our cap restraints.

oneX a aimé ceci.

24 août 2021 à 14 h 8

#73