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Adding One More Defenseman Discussion

Créé par: BallPuckFellow10
Équipe: 2021-22 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 23 août 2021
Publié: 23 août 2021
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
I would love the Leafs to acquire on more quality defenseman to secure the blue line. As it currently stands, I don't think a 3rd pair of Sandin/Dermott/Liljegren is good enough to win the cup. I think Kyle Dubas has to add someone else here, especially as protection if someone gets hurt. This trade is based on what Columbus got last year for David Savard. I understand that people can argue that one or the other is better, but in reality, I think Savard and Murphy are seen to be pretty equal from GM's around the league. Columbus got a 1st and a 3rd in addition to retaining half of his salary. Tampa also used Detroit as a third party to retain 25% of his total salary (or 50% of what was remaining after the Columbus retention) and got a 4th round pick for doing so. I think the Leafs could make such a deal as well at the trade deadline. This obviously hangs on the Blackhawks being out the playoff picture and Murphy available on the market.

Below are other players I think would significantly improve the Leafs blue line going in to the post season that could be rentals if their respective teams are out of it:

- Parayko from STL. Constructing the deal the same way with retention from 2 teams would enable the Leafs to acquire him on cap hit of $1.375M. He could potentially be more expensive and the 3rd could be upgraded to a 2nd. STL might not want to commit long term to him due to his injury problems. Obviously contingent on STL not making the playoffs.

- Lindholm from ANA. Would come in at $1,301,389. Would likely fetch a similar return to Parayko. Maybe even a prospect as well. Has been Anaheim's #1D for the last 6 seasons. I am not sure if he fits their timeline with their rebuild, but I would imagine that they would like to resign him. He would be an insane addition. Long shot.

- Pulock from NYI. Would come in at $1.25M. This is an extreme long shot if the Islanders don't make the playoffs and don't want to commit to him. I can't see it happening and he would likely cost the same as what I proposed for Lindholm. Cannot stress enough how much of a long shot I think this is. Islanders would really have to suck this year for this to happen and decide that it isn't worth locking Pulock up long time.

- Ekholm from NSH. Would come in at $937.5K. If Nashville don't make the playoffs, I think he will be one of the main guys on all NHL trade bait lists. He would be an excellent add and could play on all three pairs. I feel as if competition will be high for his services and he could very well be more expensive than the price Columbus asked for Savard. a 1st round pick and a 2nd should be enough. A first and a 3rd would be more ideal or a 1st and a prospect not named Amirov, Robertson, Niemelä, Hirvonen, Liljegren or Knies.

- De Haan from CHI. Would come in at $1,137,500. I think he is worse than the 5 other players I have suggested but could possibly be the most realistic one. I also think he would come in cheaper than what Savard did last year. I think the Leafs have to go all-in this season and I think he is an upgrade on Dermott. I don't think Chicago gets a 1st for him. Maybe a 2nd and a 3rd for the retention. I wouldn't mind him at all, but he would not be my first choice.

- I feel like I have to mention Colin Miller BUF ($968,750), Josh Manson ANA ($1.025M) and Chiarot MTL ($875K). These guys would be far down the pecking order and cheaper than the other guys. Their quality is obviously less as well. I can just see Miller with the Dubas/Keefe SOO connection, Manson because it has been rumored before that they were interested and Chiarot can become available if MTL are out of it. These guys would all be 3rd pairing guys and give Dermott/Sandin/Liljegren good competition. Not sure if they alone are enough to on paper at least make us one of the favorites for the cup. Edler, Zadorov and Cole are others that I am not 100% sold on if the would come available.

Taxi squad are player that are waiver exempt except for Engvall. In this scenario he would likely either be included in the trade or sent down. I just put him there to show that he was still in the system. Let me know what you think. Let's have some good discussions.
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
CRÉÉANSCAP HIT
Murphy, Connor
1962 500 $
Transactions
1.
TOR
    Connor Murphy with 50% retention.
    CHI
    1. Choix de 1e ronde en 2022 (TOR)
    2. Choix de 3e ronde en 2023 (TOR)
    2.
    TOR
      Leafs get Connor Murphy Salary 25% retained from a third party and his final cap hit is $962,500.
      CHI
      1. Choix de 4e ronde en 2023 (TOR)
      Détails additionnels:
      Could be any team in the league that has enough cap space that want to add a ''free'' draft pick for retaining salary and being the third party in the deal.
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      2181 500 000 $81 257 283 $0 $0 $242 717 $

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      DG/DD
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      UFA - 1
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      AD, AG
      UFA - 1
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      796 667 $796 667 $ (0 $$00 $$0)
      AG, AD
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      863 333 $863 333 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (Bonis de performance400 000 $$400K)
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      Unités spéciales

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      Murphy, C.

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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 39
      #1
      Bedard23
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      Nope and Murphy is not taking that low ball offer
      23 août 2021 à 14 h 43
      #2
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      Quoting: IconicHawk
      Nope and Murphy is not taking that low ball offer


      Ummmm, I think that is to reflect the salary retention.
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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 45
      #3
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      the leafs really really really do not need an expensive slow 'defensive' guy like Murphy or De Haan, they just dont. And they dont need someone who isnt good like Miller or Manson.
      The rest are good players but luxuries that they should not pay what would cost to get them.
      23 août 2021 à 14 h 47
      #4
      exo2769
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      Quoting: swinny
      Ummmm, I think that is to reflect the salary retention.


      AND a translation to a cap hit today vs that cap hit @ the TDL since cap accrues on a daily basis.
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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 47
      #5
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      Quoting: IconicHawk
      Nope and Murphy is not taking that low ball offer


      Quoting: swinny
      Ummmm, I think that is to reflect the salary retention.


      Swinny you are correct. ACGM doesn't allow us to correctly make three way deals yet. Hopefully something they can add in the future.
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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 51
      #6
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      the leafs really really really do not need an expensive slow 'defensive' guy like Murphy or De Haan, they just dont. And they dont need someone who isnt good like Miller or Manson.
      The rest are good players but luxuries that they should not pay what would cost to get them.


      I completely disagree with you. I don't think you win a championship with the current blue line. I think we need one more solid addition to make us one of the true favorites. The players I mentioned are a luxury but needed for us to go all the way. An extra defenseman that can step up and play heavier minutes in the case of someone getting hurt is also so important to have. We have been screwed when Muzzin got hurt.
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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 52
      #7
      exo2769
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      I think that overall you're spot on with the direction TOR should be going. They haven't been defensively sound for a long time and it's something they need to get better at.

      I understand if you want to play a run and gun style...ok I understand where you're coming from, but the reality is...that hasn't really worked out in the playoffs for anyone except the Penguins and even then...they got .923 and .929 SV% from their goaltending. Not likely in the realm of possibility between Campbell and Mrazek for an entire playoffs
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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 53
      #8
      Kyle from Chicago
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      Connor Murphy is younger and better than Savard, Chicago is going to keep him, but acquiring him at this point would be closer to the Seth Jones trade than the David Savage trade.
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      23 août 2021 à 14 h 55
      #9
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      Quoting: BallPuckFellow10
      I completely disagree with you. I don't think you win a championship with the current blue line. I think we need one more solid addition to make us one of the true favorites. The players I mentioned are a luxury but needed for us to go all the way. An extra defenseman that can step up and play heavier minutes in the case of someone getting hurt is also so important to have. We have been screwed when Muzzin got hurt.


      their defence was great all last year and in the playoffs. they do not need to over pay a bottom pairing defender to get what they had last year. As far as stepping in if someone gets hurt that only matters if that defender can do that. Miller, Manson and Murphy cannot as they are bottom roster players that would get even more exposed in bigger minutes and would make the team worse on top of the cap hit and the assets to acquire them, IE giving a first for foligno who was awful and couldnt help when tavares was out, it would be the same thing (yes i know foligno was hurt, but the effect would be the same for someone who cant handle the load)
      as far as the other guys like parayko you would have to not only take out any forward depth, but probably defensive depth too to get them on top of other assets and cap casualties and then you'd have even more depth issues.
      23 août 2021 à 14 h 56
      #10
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      Quoting: exo2769
      I think that overall you're spot on with the direction TOR should be going. They haven't been defensively sound for a long time and it's something they need to get better at.

      I understand if you want to play a run and gun style...ok I understand where you're coming from, but the reality is...that hasn't really worked out in the playoffs for anyone except the Penguins and even then...they got .923 and .929 SV% from their goaltending. Not likely in the realm of possibility between Campbell and Mrazek for an entire playoffs


      this isnt true at all Toronto have been good defensivly for 2 years now, they were top 1/4 of the league last year.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 0
      #11
      exo2769
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      this isnt true at all Toronto have been good defensivly for 2 years now, they were top 1/4 of the league last year.


      Base on what? MTL might have picked things up big time in the playoffs, but when you face VAN, CGY, OTT, and MTL (in the regular season)...you're expected to dominate.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 3
      #12
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      Quoting: exo2769
      I think that overall you're spot on with the direction TOR should be going. They haven't been defensively sound for a long time and it's something they need to get better at.

      I understand if you want to play a run and gun style...ok I understand where you're coming from, but the reality is...that hasn't really worked out in the playoffs for anyone except the Penguins and even then...they got .923 and .929 SV% from their goaltending. Not likely in the realm of possibility between Campbell and Mrazek for an entire playoffs


      Thanks for your contribution! The Leafs defense has improved a lot since Brodie arrived. I think we can make it to the playoffs with our current blue line, but we won't win a cup with them IMO. I think we literally are 1 add away and a healthy roster to be a serious contender to Tampa.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 3
      #13
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      Quoting: exo2769
      Base on what? MTL might have picked things up big time in the playoffs, but when you face VAN, CGY, OTT, and MTL (in the regular season)...you're expected to dominate.


      based on literally everything from the eye test to stats? The Leafs didnt lose to montreal because of their defence (montreal won 3 games by one goal), they lost because they couldnt score.
      They were good the year before too, if you remember, and then added Brodie who is very good defensivly in place of Barrie, who is awful. They also have better defensive forwards on top of better goaltending.
      the leafs team that was bad defensivly was the one with injured gardiner and Zaitsev on the blue line, not this one.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 7
      #14
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      Quoting: Stan_Bowman
      Connor Murphy is younger and better than Savard, Chicago is going to keep him, but acquiring him at this point would be closer to the Seth Jones trade than the David Savage trade.


      I can definitely see Chicago wanting to keep him, but if they are out of the playoffs and can get a 1st and a 2nd or 3rd for someone that potentially could leave for free in free agency, they would be stupid not to consider it. They wouldn't trade him if they were in the mix for the playoffs. Also, if they really like him, they can resign him in the off season as free agent if he would come available again. Chicago have Ian Mitchell that likely will get 3rd pairing minutes again this year and should progress into that 2nd pair after this season. Moving on from Murphy if they are out of the playoffs makes so much sense for Chicago. I don't disagree that he is better than Savard, but he is definitely not in the Seth Jones ballpark.
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 11
      #15
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      As I have discussed, I don't think the Leafs have the pick depth to make a run at Murphy. Or any of the players you have pointed out for that matter.

      They need to seek out options that will cost little in asset, yet fill a void. Really looking for a vet on a cheap deal or an expiring deal.

      So.....

      1. Kris Russell. The guy is maligned in Edmonton, yet is a highly effective shut down guy that can move the puck reasonably well. I doubt the Oilers will part with him given they look to make a push this year, but that may depend on the development of Bouchard and how Ceci looks in the top 4.

      Cost: 2023 3rd.

      2. Brett Kulak: a prototypical 3rd pairing stay at home guy who is grossly underrated. Doesn't move the puck as well as a guy like Russell, but he is there to move bodies. Given the Habs depth on the blueline going into the year, he maybe starting on the bench.... and thus maybe expendable. For the Leafs, a perfect #5/6 option.

      Cost: 2023 4th

      3. Matt Benning. Like Kulak, underrated. Does nothing fantastic, but a lot of little things right. Nashville projects (imo) to miss the playoffs, so I have to think Benning is one that gets moved. Looked good in Edmonton's bottom pairing. Looks good in Nashville's. Possible to resign cheap.to boot.

      Cost: Grade B prospect, say Hollawell.

      4. Matt Borowicki. Same as Benning. More of a vet, bit more edge.

      Cost: similar Benning

      5. Robert Hagg. Buried in Philly, but I have always liked his game. In the same mild as Borowicki, but much younger. Buffalo will be terrible, and as Hagg will be a UFA, gotta think the Sabres jettison as much a possible for futures. Hagg is 100% a resign candidate on a reasonable deal.

      Cost: Filip Kral, and a mid rounder in 2023

      6. Nick Holden. Again, a really underrated D. Can actually play some.top 4 minutes in a pinch, but better suited for 3rd. Moves the puck reasonably well. Does so many little things right. Blueline depth in Ottawa probably has him on the block at the deadline as they usher in the new generation.

      Cost: 2023 3rd - maybe a 2nd because it's the Leafs

      7. Robert Bortuzzo. OK. This is a stretch, as the Blues on paper SHOULD make the playoffs. But if they move Tarasenko, that I think is a crap shoot. So, if they are on the bubble, I think Bortuzzo can be had. I don't think we need to explain his game. Would be the best fit of the group, and in terms of asset, the most expensive to land.

      Cost: 2023 2nd with a reasonable prospect.

      Point is......

      The name you are throwing out there will cost waaaayto much in asset capital. Granted, the players I have listed are not on the same.playong field, but it fills a void and costs significantly less in asset.

      Pretty sure people will parade here to tell me I am on glue, but with just 3 picks in the 2022 draft, spending them for that big an upgrade just isn't effective management imo. The blueline doesn't need an upgrade, it needs proven player that can step in if and when injuries occur.

      I say think a little smaller unless there is a long term injury.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 13
      #16
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      this isnt true at all Toronto have been good defensivly for 2 years now, they were top 1/4 of the league last year.


      The Leafs blueline is in the best shape we have seen in 5 years. Depth is needed, not an overhaul.
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 14
      #17
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      their defence was great all last year and in the playoffs. they do not need to over pay a bottom pairing defender to get what they had last year. As far as stepping in if someone gets hurt that only matters if that defender can do that. Miller, Manson and Murphy cannot as they are bottom roster players that would get even more exposed in bigger minutes and would make the team worse on top of the cap hit and the assets to acquire them, IE giving a first for foligno who was awful and couldnt help when tavares was out, it would be the same thing (yes i know foligno was hurt, but the effect would be the same for someone who cant handle the load)
      as far as the other guys like parayko you would have to not only take out any forward depth, but probably defensive depth too to get them on top of other assets and cap casualties and then you'd have even more depth issues.


      I completely disagree with you here. Firstly, Murphy is not in the same bracket as Miller and Manson. He is not a bottom pairing defenseman. He is a legit top 4 guy that can play heavy minutes against great completion without any problem. He would be such a great add. Miller and Manson, just like I mentioned would not be my preferred choice and wouldn't move the needle enough for us to be cup favorites. I agree that it would be to much of a risk to blow valuable assets on them. As far as your valuation of Parayko, a 1st and 2nd should get it done at the deadline if he is available. The Blues won't want a bunch of roster players and we wouldn't have to send a bunch of depth players in order for us to be cap compliant.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 18
      #18
      exo2769
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      based on literally everything from the eye test to stats? The Leafs didnt lose to montreal because of their defence (montreal won 3 games by one goal), they lost because they couldnt score.
      They were good the year before too, if you remember, and then added Brodie who is very good defensivly in place of Barrie, who is awful. They also have better defensive forwards on top of better goaltending.
      the leafs team that was bad defensivly was the one with injured gardiner and Zaitsev on the blue line, not this one.


      I mean...AGAIN...you played in the north. and 1 series doesn't mean anything. Now that you have to play REAL competition in Tampa, Florida, and Boston...it's a different game. Barrie was indeed bad at defense. Brodie is indeed better. "Better" doesn't mean TOR is set by any means. I do like the analysis @swinny did. TOR doesn't need to go for the #1 RD, but someone that can produce like Chiarot did for MTL. I don't mean literally Chiarot either...just making an example that his minute eating production meant A LOT and this is what TOR needs more of.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 19
      #19
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      Quoting: swinny
      The Leafs blueline is in the best shape we have seen in 5 years. Depth is needed, not an overhaul.


      they basically need someone cheap who can be burried if need be and doesnt cost assets. IE another bogo from last year.
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 20
      #20
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      they basically need someone cheap who can be burried if need be and doesnt cost assets. IE another bogo from last year.


      Yeah, see my lengthy post lol
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 21
      #21
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      Quoting: exo2769
      I mean...AGAIN...you played in the north. and 1 series doesn't mean anything. Now that you have to play REAL competition in Tampa, Florida, and Boston...it's a different game. Barrie was indeed bad at defense. Brodie is indeed better. "Better" doesn't mean TOR is set by any means. I do like the analysis swinny did. TOR doesn't need to go for the #1 RD, but someone that can produce like Chiarot did for MTL. I don't mean literally Chiarot either...just making an example that his minute eating production meant A LOT and this is what TOR needs more of.


      except that chariot didnt produce for montreal. He was slaughtered every time he stepped on to the ice by every forward with an ounce of skill or speed. He basically owes Cary Price a steak dinner a week for the duration of his contract. The leafs most certainly do not need a guy who is big, slow and is only good at cross checking people in the back and deflecting the puck at his own net
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 22
      #22
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      Quoting: BallPuckFellow10
      I completely disagree with you here. Firstly, Murphy is not in the same bracket as Miller and Manson. He is not a bottom pairing defenseman. He is a legit top 4 guy that can play heavy minutes against great completion without any problem. He would be such a great add. Miller and Manson, just like I mentioned would not be my preferred choice and wouldn't move the needle enough for us to be cup favorites. I agree that it would be to much of a risk to blow valuable assets on them. As far as your valuation of Parayko, a 1st and 2nd should get it done at the deadline if he is available. The Blues won't want a bunch of roster players and we wouldn't have to send a bunch of depth players in order for us to be cap compliant.


      murphy is 'better' than those guys, but he still fills the same niche. Slow, zero ability to get the puck out of the zone and expensive for what he brings in both assets and cap hit, so he isnt a fit.
      And if Parayko goes for just slightly more than foligno did last year, i will be very very surprised.
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 25
      #23
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      Quoting: swinny
      As I have discussed, I don't think the Leafs have the pick depth to make a run at Murphy. Or any of the players you have pointed out for that matter.

      They need to seek out options that will cost little in asset, yet fill a void. Really looking for a vet on a cheap deal or an expiring deal.

      So.....

      1. Kris Russell. The guy is maligned in Edmonton, yet is a highly effective shut down guy that can move the puck reasonably well. I doubt the Oilers will part with him given they look to make a push this year, but that may depend on the development of Bouchard and how Ceci looks in the top 4.

      Cost: 2023 3rd.

      2. Brett Kulak: a prototypical 3rd pairing stay at home guy who is grossly underrated. Doesn't move the puck as well as a guy like Russell, but he is there to move bodies. Given the Habs depth on the blueline going into the year, he maybe starting on the bench.... and thus maybe expendable. For the Leafs, a perfect #5/6 option.

      Cost: 2023 4th

      3. Matt Benning. Like Kulak, underrated. Does nothing fantastic, but a lot of little things right. Nashville projects (imo) to miss the playoffs, so I have to think Benning is one that gets moved. Looked good in Edmonton's bottom pairing. Looks good in Nashville's. Possible to resign cheap.to boot.

      Cost: Grade B prospect, say Hollawell.

      4. Matt Borowicki. Same as Benning. More of a vet, bit more edge.

      Cost: similar Benning

      5. Robert Hagg. Buried in Philly, but I have always liked his game. In the same mild as Borowicki, but much younger. Buffalo will be terrible, and as Hagg will be a UFA, gotta think the Sabres jettison as much a possible for futures. Hagg is 100% a resign candidate on a reasonable deal.

      Cost: Filip Kral, and a mid rounder in 2023

      6. Nick Holden. Again, a really underrated D. Can actually play some.top 4 minutes in a pinch, but better suited for 3rd. Moves the puck reasonably well. Does so many little things right. Blueline depth in Ottawa probably has him on the block at the deadline as they usher in the new generation.

      Cost: 2023 3rd - maybe a 2nd because it's the Leafs

      7. Robert Bortuzzo. OK. This is a stretch, as the Blues on paper SHOULD make the playoffs. But if they move Tarasenko, that I think is a crap shoot. So, if they are on the bubble, I think Bortuzzo can be had. I don't think we need to explain his game. Would be the best fit of the group, and in terms of asset, the most expensive to land.

      Cost: 2023 2nd with a reasonable prospect.

      Point is......

      The name you are throwing out there will cost waaaayto much in asset capital. Granted, the players I have listed are not on the same.playong field, but it fills a void and costs significantly less in asset.

      Pretty sure people will parade here to tell me I am on glue, but with just 3 picks in the 2022 draft, spending them for that big an upgrade just isn't effective management imo. The blueline doesn't need an upgrade, it needs proven player that can step in if and when injuries occur.

      I say think a little smaller unless there is a long term injury.


      Thanks for your contribution again!
      I don't fully disagree with you. I looked at all these players as well and I think they 100% are viable options. However, the question you have to ask yourself is if they are that much better than Dermott? Let's be real, he is going to be the odd man out. Rielly, Brodie, Muzzin, Holl and Sandin are all going to play unless an injury or something else crazy happens. I think those guys are fine as depth options at the TDL, but then you have to ask yourself another question. Are those guys worth bringing in over giving Liljegren a chance as the 7th D option? In my personal opinion, I don't think so. I think they should go big and try to land one of the big boys. This might be their last run with this forward core as well as our defensive core with Rielly, Muzzin and Brodie. I think this is the year to go all in and if we only have two draft picks in next years draft, I personally would be fine with it. I think Dubas would have done his job and all the blame for a failure should be on either the coach or players depending on how we would lose.
      23 août 2021 à 15 h 28
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      Quoting: exo2769
      I mean...AGAIN...you played in the north. and 1 series doesn't mean anything. Now that you have to play REAL competition in Tampa, Florida, and Boston...it's a different game. Barrie was indeed bad at defense. Brodie is indeed better. "Better" doesn't mean TOR is set by any means. I do like the analysis swinny did. TOR doesn't need to go for the #1 RD, but someone that can produce like Chiarot did for MTL. I don't mean literally Chiarot either...just making an example that his minute eating production meant A LOT and this is what TOR needs more of.


      I don't disagree with your points at all. My view just like I mentioned to Swinny in my response to his brilliant post was that I think the Leafs should swing for the fences. Adding another legitimate top 4 defenseman to this team would surely make them among the favorites to win it all on paper? Dubas would have done his job and no questions could be asked of him. The players and Sheldon would have to step up play/coach to the level we know they can.
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      23 août 2021 à 15 h 30
      #25
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      Quoting: JaredOfLondon
      except that chariot didnt produce for montreal. He was slaughtered every time he stepped on to the ice by every forward with an ounce of skill or speed. He basically owes Cary Price a steak dinner a week for the duration of his contract. The leafs most certainly do not need a guy who is big, slow and is only good at cross checking people in the back and deflecting the puck at his own net


      shakes head 25:15 ATOI and asked to play a much larger role than anyone anticipated and you saying he sucked... shakes head
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