Forums/Armchair-GM

This is what Bertuzzi would cost whether you like it or not

Créé par: DeadWingsv2
Date de création initiale: jui 29, 2021
Publié: 31 jui à 10 h 44
Équipe: 2021-22 Red Wings de Detroit
Explications
I have now added more Leaf fans to my ignore list than every other team combined.

I don't understand why the concept is so hard to get - Detroit doesn't want to, or have to move Bertuzzi, nor does Bertuzzi want to be moved, so there is no reason for Detroit to take "market value".

Overpay, or no trade. Period.
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
Erne, Adam12 000 000 $
Hronek, Filip34 500 000 $
Vrána, Jakub45 750 000 $
Pearson, Chase2850 000 $
Smith, Givani2900 000 $
Transactions
DET
  1. Robertson, Nicholas
  2. 2022 1e round pick (TOR)
  3. 2023 2e round pick (TOR)
TOR
  1. Bertuzzi, Tyler [Droits de RFA]
Rachats de contrats
  • Justin Abdelkader: 2 305 556 $
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Richard Pánik: 1 375 000 $ (50%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2022
DET
TOR
DET
WSH
DET
DET
COL
VGK
DET
DET
DET
2023
DET
DET
TOR
DET
DET
DET
DET
DET
2024
DET
DET
DET
DET
DET
DET
DET
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2381 500 000 $60 738 890 $0 $2 018 750 $20 761 110 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
DET
Vrána, Jakub
5 750 000 $
AG
UFA - 3
DET
Larkin, Dylan
6 100 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 2
DET
Zadina, Filip
894 167 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
DET
Fabbri, Robby
2 950 000 $
AG, C
UFA - 1
DET
Suter, Pius
3 250 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 2
DET
Rasmussen, Michael
1 460 000 $
AG, C, AD
RFA - 3
TOR
Robertson, Nicholas
796 667 $
AG
RFA - 3
DET
Veleno, Joseph
894 167 $
C
RFA - 2
DET
Namestnikov, Vladislav
2 000 000 $
AD, AG, C
UFA - 1
DET
Smith, Givani
900 000 $
AG
RFA - 2
DET
Pearson, Chase
850 000 $
C
RFA - 1
DET
Erne, Adam
2 000 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 2
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
DET
Leddy, Nick
5 500 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
DET
Hronek, Filip
4 500 000 $
DD
RFA - 3
DET
Nedeljkovic, Alex
3 000 000 $
G
UFA - 2
DET
Staal, Marc
2 000 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 1
DET
Seider, Moritz
863 333 $
DD
RFA - 3
DET
Greiss, Thomas
3 600 000 $
G
UFA - 1
DET
DeKeyser, Danny
5 000 000 $
DG
NTC
UFA - 1
DET
Stecher, Troy
1 700 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
DET
Oesterle, Jordan
1 350 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 2
DET
Lindström, Gustav
850 000 $
DD
RFA - 2
DET
Gagner, Sam
850 000 $
C, AD
UFA - 1

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31 jui à 10 h 58
#1
Rejoint: jui 2018
Messages: 719
Mentions "j'aime": 203
Leafs decline
31 jui à 11 h 00
#2
FLA V4 AGM
Rejoint: nov 2020
Messages: 3,172
Mentions "j'aime": 1,294
I agree with what you are saying, Robertson and a first definitely have to be a part, maybe red wings prefer a prospect like SDA instead of the second but same concept.
DeadWingsv2 et RedWing9119 a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 01
#3
Roster Architect
Rejoint: mar 2021
Messages: 1,846
Mentions "j'aime": 623
Factors that Red Wings fans seem to forget about because it doesn't get them what they want:
1. Bertuzzi is coming off a major injury that required season ending surgery - teams will be weary of that and wonder if it'll affect his play
2. Bertuzzi is a high end middle 6 winger, not an elite 1st line winger. Teams don't drastically overpay for that.
3. The team acquiring Bertuzzi needs to sign him to a new contract so there's control uncertainty. Bertuzzi has all the leverage in talks right now being 1 year away from UFA with arbitration rights this off-season, teams would want a commitment before overpaying.
4. Detroit doesn't have much leverage. As mentioned, Bertuzzi is 1 year away from UFA with arb rights this year and he's had multiple contract disputes with Detroit in his career. It's clear that the team and the player don't agree on value and it's likely heading to a trade (things could change but right now it looks like that's the path). With only 1 year of control left, a Bertuzzi trade would be treated like a rental unless a long term commitment is in place. & teams don't drastically overpay for player alike Bertuzzi that are rentals - it just doesn't happen.

Wings fans seem to overvalue Bertuzzi on here but don't look at affecting factors that will affect his value. I get it, you want the best return for your favourite team - everyone does. But in no way is Detroit getting an A level prospect like Robertson + 1st and 2nd round picks. That's more than what Vegas paid for Mark Stone WITH an extension. So get real here.

& this is not coming from a Leafs fan, it's coming from an outside perspective. But Wings fans need to lessen the hype train on a Bertuzzi trade or they'll be highly disappointed.
SNipeSHowInc a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 03
#4
Démarrer sujet
PlusMinus is stupid
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 2,455
Mentions "j'aime": 2,200
Quoting: SNipeSHowInc
Leafs decline

As they should. To be honest, I think they'd be stupid to pay what Bertuzzi would cost in a trade, but that's what it will take to acquire him, a stupid overpayment.
31 jui à 11 h 05
#5
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 113
Mentions "j'aime": 108
A typical Leaf ACGM:

Trade guys to the Wings who the Wings don't need for Bertuzzi.
Unwillingly throw in a late 2nd or 3rd round pick.
Underpay Bertuzzi at ~3m a year.
Instantly throw Bert on the first line.

If he'd be a good first liner on the team and only take up 3-4m a year in cap a team is going to have to give up assets for that.

It's getting old.
Also they forget Scooby Dubas < Yzerman.
DeadWingsv2, will9739, RedWing9119 and 1 other person a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 08
#6
Rejoint: déc 2018
Messages: 2,213
Mentions "j'aime": 212
Quoting: TrueCanuck
Factors that Red Wings fans seem to forget about because it doesn't get them what they want:
1. Bertuzzi is coming off a major injury that required season ending surgery - teams will be weary of that and wonder if it'll affect his play
2. Bertuzzi is a high end middle 6 winger, not an elite 1st line winger. Teams don't drastically overpay for that.
3. The team acquiring Bertuzzi needs to sign him to a new contract so there's control uncertainty. Bertuzzi has all the leverage in talks right now being 1 year away from UFA with arbitration rights this off-season, teams would want a commitment before overpaying.
4. Detroit doesn't have much leverage. As mentioned, Bertuzzi is 1 year away from UFA with arb rights this year and he's had multiple contract disputes with Detroit in his career. It's clear that the team and the player don't agree on value and it's likely heading to a trade (things could change but right now it looks like that's the path). With only 1 year of control left, a Bertuzzi trade would be treated like a rental unless a long term commitment is in place. & teams don't drastically overpay for player alike Bertuzzi that are rentals - it just doesn't happen.

Wings fans seem to overvalue Bertuzzi on here but don't look at affecting factors that will affect his value. I get it, you want the best return for your favourite team - everyone does. But in no way is Detroit getting an A level prospect like Robertson + 1st and 2nd round picks. That's more than what Vegas paid for Mark Stone WITH an extension. So get real here.

& this is not coming from a Leafs fan, it's coming from an outside perspective. But Wings fans need to lessen the hype train on a Bertuzzi trade or they'll be highly disappointed.


Thanks man, great explanation maybe people will more understand what factors in the value of the players
TrueCanuck a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 11
#7
Démarrer sujet
PlusMinus is stupid
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 2,455
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Quoting: Bruinsforlife
Thanks man, great explanation maybe people will more understand what factors in the value of the players

But that's my whole point... His value is irrelevant, because we don't want to trade him and he doesn't want to be traded. Like I said above, I think a team would be stupid to pay what Bertuzzi would cost in a trade, but that's what it will take to acquire him, a stupid overpayment.
Octopus_Guy, Billy12Bob, RedWing9119 and 1 other person a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 16
#8
Banni
Rejoint: mai 2021
Messages: 3,030
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Well now the leafs have no cap space so yeah…..
DeadWingsv2, LGuy54 et RedWing9119 a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 17
#9
Roster Architect
Rejoint: mar 2021
Messages: 1,846
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Quoting: DeadWingsv2
But that's my whole point... His value is irrelevant, because we don't want to trade him and he doesn't want to be traded. Like I said above, I think a team would be stupid to pay what Bertuzzi would cost in a trade, but that's what it will take to acquire him, a stupid overpayment.


Well he just signed (another) bridge deal so that says a lot. The player and the organization are at a disconnect in how they see the players value so a trade is very likely still - could be a deadline add for someone though. A contract now helps add a bit of value for Detroit, but unless Bertuzzi shows his back isn't affecting him then his value is no where near what you have listed. Even if he is healthy, teams don't overpay for middle of the lineup guys.
Bruinsforlife a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 21
#10
Démarrer sujet
PlusMinus is stupid
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 2,455
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Quoting: IconicHawk
Well now the leafs have no cap space so yeah…..

Yea, I mean, it's just not going to happen, nor should it. There is no scenario in which a trade of Bertuzzi to Toronto is a win-win.
Billy12Bob a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 28
#11
Rejoint: oct 2019
Messages: 1,330
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I know it has been a while, but this is another step away from Bert-Ehn-Erne frown
DeadWingsv2 a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 29
#12
Démarrer sujet
PlusMinus is stupid
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 2,455
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Quoting: Mr_Canoehead
I know it has been a while, but this is another step away from Bert-Ehn-Erne? frown

I'm still disappointed that line never happened...
Mr_Canoehead a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 30
#13
Rejoint: oct 2019
Messages: 1,330
Mentions "j'aime": 749
Quoting: DeadWingsv2
I'm still disappointed that line never happened...


Just think of the marketing gold... Sunday matinee game with a Sesame Street tie-in.
DeadWingsv2 a aimé ceci.
31 jui à 11 h 35
#14
Rejoint: déc 2018
Messages: 2,213
Mentions "j'aime": 212
Quoting: DeadWingsv2
But that's my whole point... His value is irrelevant, because we don't want to trade him and he doesn't want to be traded. Like I said above, I think a team would be stupid to pay what Bertuzzi would cost in a trade, but that's what it will take to acquire him, a stupid overpayment.


Because it’s Steve y, team will likely overpay for him, but still I think he’s worth a a prospect with a late first but, that’s if he come with a contract for 4 minimums
31 jui à 20 h 23
#15
Rejoint: mai 2020
Messages: 4,075
Mentions "j'aime": 3,004
Quoting: TrueCanuck
Factors that Red Wings fans seem to forget about because it doesn't get them what they want:
1. Bertuzzi is coming off a major injury that required season ending surgery - teams will be weary of that and wonder if it'll affect his play
2. Bertuzzi is a high end middle 6 winger, not an elite 1st line winger. Teams don't drastically overpay for that.
3. The team acquiring Bertuzzi needs to sign him to a new contract so there's control uncertainty. Bertuzzi has all the leverage in talks right now being 1 year away from UFA with arbitration rights this off-season, teams would want a commitment before overpaying.
4. Detroit doesn't have much leverage. As mentioned, Bertuzzi is 1 year away from UFA with arb rights this year and he's had multiple contract disputes with Detroit in his career. It's clear that the team and the player don't agree on value and it's likely heading to a trade (things could change but right now it looks like that's the path). With only 1 year of control left, a Bertuzzi trade would be treated like a rental unless a long term commitment is in place. & teams don't drastically overpay for player alike Bertuzzi that are rentals - it just doesn't happen.

Wings fans seem to overvalue Bertuzzi on here but don't look at affecting factors that will affect his value. I get it, you want the best return for your favourite team - everyone does. But in no way is Detroit getting an A level prospect like Robertson + 1st and 2nd round picks. That's more than what Vegas paid for Mark Stone WITH an extension. So get real here.

& this is not coming from a Leafs fan, it's coming from an outside perspective. But Wings fans need to lessen the hype train on a Bertuzzi trade or they'll be highly disappointed.

Here’s my rebuttal to each of your points.

1. Sure, teams would also have full access to his medical records. Yzerman, stated before the extension he isn’t shopping Bertuzzi so offering scraps doesn’t do anything towards Yzerman’s direction. He wants to be competitive (even as a rebuilder) and loves hustle + 2 way play which is Bertuzzi to a T.

2. What do you mean high-end middle 6 player. When I hear that I think average second liner and phenomal third liner. He’s 92 in scoring the 2 past seasons he was healthy on the worst offensive team in the league. One could argue opportunity but let’s factor in QOC + worst offensive team.

Source: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=F&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists&page=1&pageSize=50

3. Mute point, extension in place. Plus, teams are allowed to negotiate when acquiring rights, that’s common in the NHL we literally just saw with a star player (Jones). You also provided an example earlier of this being common with Stone.

4. What multiple contract disputes? One isn’t multiple. Again mute point with the extension and isn’t logical because see point 3. Detroit has leverage on other teams simply for demand. It was rumored 9 teams called about Bertuzzi at the TDL and after seeing what Hyman/Coleman just received and the ability for Detroit to retain or take back dumps only maximizes the value.

I don’t agree with OP’s proposal as they’re not the pieces I’d be interested in and I don’t think Toronto is a great trading partner with Detroit based on surplus. I also believe Bertuzzi will be traded between now and TDL assuming a respectable offer is presented.
1 aoû à 6 h 46
#16
Rejoint: fév 2018
Messages: 315
Mentions "j'aime": 149
Quoting: BStinson
Here’s my rebuttal to each of your points.

1. Sure, teams would also have full access to his medical records. Yzerman, stated before the extension he isn’t shopping Bertuzzi so offering scraps doesn’t do anything towards Yzerman’s direction. He wants to be competitive (even as a rebuilder) and loves hustle + 2 way play which is Bertuzzi to a T.

2. What do you mean high-end middle 6 player. When I hear that I think average second liner and phenomal third liner. He’s 92 in scoring the 2 past seasons he was healthy on the worst offensive team in the league. One could argue opportunity but let’s factor in QOC + worst offensive team.

Source: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=F&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists&page=1&pageSize=50

3. Mute point, extension in place. Plus, teams are allowed to negotiate when acquiring rights, that’s common in the NHL we literally just saw with a star player (Jones). You also provided an example earlier of this being common with Stone.

4. What multiple contract disputes? One isn’t multiple. Again mute point with the extension and isn’t logical because see point 3. Detroit has leverage on other teams simply for demand. It was rumored 9 teams called about Bertuzzi at the TDL and after seeing what Hyman/Coleman just received and the ability for Detroit to retain or take back dumps only maximizes the value.

I don’t agree with OP’s proposal as they’re not the pieces I’d be interested in and I don’t think Toronto is a great trading partner with Detroit based on surplus. I also believe Bertuzzi will be traded between now and TDL assuming a respectable offer is presented.


Counterpoint #1 is the big kicker here. Yzerman said he's listening to offers on Bertuzzi, not that Bertuzzi is on the block for "market value." Detroit doesn't have to (and doesn't want to) trade Bertuzzi, so his value on paper is entirely irrelevant.
My own two cents is that it doesn't make sense for ANYBODY to trade for Bertuzzi right now. Considering how important he is to the Red Wings, with Yzerman being the negotiator, and with any amount of uncertainty on his health would make it way too risky for any sane GM to make that gamble. Let Bert prove he's 100% and then try to bid during the trade deadline. Maybe somebody in the organization makes big steps and makes Bert more expendable, so the price won't be astronomical.
DeadWingsv2 a aimé ceci.
1 aoû à 9 h 16
#17
Banni
Rejoint: mai 2021
Messages: 3,030
Mentions "j'aime": 1,177
Quoting: SNipeSHowInc
Leafs decline


Well your garbage isn’t gonna get him so
 
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