Forums/Armchair-GM

Dubas on the hot seat

Créé par: klaw2
Date de création initiale: 21 juill. 2021
Publié: 21 juill. 2021
Équipe: 2021-22 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Description
Somewhat realistic and I think Domi would do really well in Toronto imo.
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
UFAANSCAP HIT
Galchenyuk, Alex2900 000 $
Ullmark, Linus43 400 000 $
Haula, Erik11 000 000 $
McGinn, Brock32 000 000 $
Transactions
1.
TOR
  1. Domi, Max (1 050 000 $ retained)
CBJ
  1. Kerfoot, Alexander
2.
TOR
SEA
  1. McCann, Jared
3.
TOR
  1. Lomberg, Ryan
FLA
  1. Engvall, Pierre
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Phil Kessel: 1 200 000 $ (15%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGE1E RONDE2E RONDE3E RONDE4E RONDE5E RONDE6E RONDE7E RONDE
2021
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
2022
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
2023
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2381 500 000 $77 308 116 $0 $400 000 $4 191 884 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
Logo de Blue Jackets de Columbus
Domi, Max
275 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Matthews, Auston
11 640 250 $
C
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Marner, Mitchell
10 903 000 $
AD
UFA - 4
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Galchenyuk, Alex
900 000 $
AG, C, AD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Tavares, John
11 000 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 4
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Nylander, William
6 962 366 $
AD, AG
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Mikheyev, Ilya
1 645 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
Haula, Erik
1 000 000 $
AG, C
UFA - 2
McGinn, Brock
2 000 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 4
Logo de Panthers de la Floride
Lomberg, Ryan
725 000 $
AG
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Spezza, Jason
750 000 $
C, AD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Simmonds, Wayne
900 000 $
AD, AG
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Brooks, Adam
725 000 $
C
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Anderson, Joey
750 000 $
AD
RFA - 2
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Muzzin, Jake
5 625 000 $
DG
NTC
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Brodie, TJ
5 000 000 $
DG/DD
NTC
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Campbell, Jack
1 650 000 $
G
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Rielly, Morgan
5 000 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Holl, Justin
2 000 000 $
DD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Ullmark, Linus
3 400 000 $
G
UFA - 4
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Sandin, Rasmus
894 167 $
DG
RFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Liljegren, Timothy
863 333 $
DD
RFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Dermott, Travis
1 500 000 $
DG/DD
RFA - 2

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21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 0
#1
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Losing McCann is inexcusable today sucks
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21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 2
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Ullmark will be looking for a starters job not backup. And Domi is out until at least January after his surgery.
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21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 7
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Quoting: jet11567
Losing McCann is inexcusable today sucks


No it isn't. With Seattle's reported ask of a 1st and a 3rd to protect extra players, Dubas essentially pays a mediocre prospect and a 7th to protect his entire roster form last season.. how is that inexcusable?
21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 14
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Quoting: TrueCanuck
No it isn't. With Seattle's reported ask of a 1st and a 3rd to protect extra players, Dubas essentially pays a mediocre prospect and a 7th to protect his entire roster form last season.. how is that inexcusable?


Cause McCann is a really good depth player. Sure, he may have protected his roster from last year, but that roster didn't work. McCann would've helped. Toronto can afford to lose a 1st and a 3rd. Especially in this draft.
21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 15
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Don't think that's enough money for Galchenyuk nor Haula but I like those acquisitions, as well as the idea of getting someone like Lomberg. I don't really think trading Engvall is much of an option though, given that he's a replacement level player making more than league minimum, even if he's an RFA upon contract expiration.

Ullmark contract seems fair but he may be looking for a true starter's role. We'll see.

Not really a fan of Domi, I think he gets a lot out of having good press upon his entrance to the league and during the Galchenyuk trade, but I think he gives up a lot on defense and doesn't push the needle for forechecking, penalty differential, or finishing talent.
21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 21
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Quoting: TrueCanuck
No it isn't. With Seattle's reported ask of a 1st and a 3rd to protect extra players, Dubas essentially pays a mediocre prospect and a 7th to protect his entire roster form last season.. how is that inexcusable?


Ok I’ll bite. Who on this team was worth protecting that you need the spend a 1st and a 3rd to protect? Kerfoot? Holl? Dermott? Anderson?

Either make the McCann trade and go 7-3-1 or don’t.

If you don’t make the trade you still can go 8 skaters, lose Kerfoot plus his cap hit, and still have Hallander and the 7th.

Unless they are planning on using Kerfoot in the top 6 this year, going after McCann was awesome. Not going 7-3-1 to protect just Holl was a mistake.
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21 juill. 2021 à 17 h 28
#7
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Quoting: Austerity
Don't think that's enough money for Galchenyuk nor Haula but I like those acquisitions, as well as the idea of getting someone like Lomberg. I don't really think trading Engvall is much of an option though, given that he's a replacement level player making more than league minimum, even if he's an RFA upon contract expiration.

Ullmark contract seems fair but he may be looking for a true starter's role. We'll see.

Not really a fan of Domi, I think he gets a lot out of having good press upon his entrance to the league and during the Galchenyuk trade, but I think he gives up a lot on defense and doesn't push the needle for forechecking, penalty differential, or finishing talent.


I can see Galchenyuk signing for around that on a multiyear deal, as he gets security and it lowers the AAV. Haula is a decent 3C option, and for a team close to the cap, it makes a ton of sense. Trading for Domi would be risky, and if he is injured for a chunk of the season, I wonder if Dubas pulls some cap shenanigans and almost uses Domi as a free TDL acquistion. Mcginn seems like he will get a contract similar to Jesper Fast did last season from the Hurricanes nonetheless. Seems like the type of player the Leafs can use in the bottom 6. Lomberg and Engvall is almost a wash. I also like Ullmark as a tandem goalie with Campbell.
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21 juill. 2021 à 19 h 4
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Quoting: JackAce91
Cause McCann is a really good depth player. Sure, he may have protected his roster from last year, but that roster didn't work. McCann would've helped. Toronto can afford to lose a 1st and a 3rd. Especially in this draft.


Do your homework next time - Toronto doesn't have either a 1st or a 3rd in this draft and they actually don't have a 3rd round pick until 2023 so the price would then turn to their top prospects like Robertson, Sandin, Amirov, etc which are absolutely not affordable to lose.

So to only lose Hallander who's maybe worth an early 3rd and a 7th seems a heck of a lot better than losing any one of their top guys.

& that roster that "didn't work" just finished 6th overall in the league and the guy they wanna keep around was their second best forward in the playoffs and is a good depth piece too. It made a lot of sense to want to keep the roster in tact actually.
21 juill. 2021 à 19 h 41
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
Ok I’ll bite.
Who on this team was worth protecting that you need the spend a 1st and a 3rd to protect? Kerfoot? Holl? Dermott? Anderson?

Either make the McCann trade and go 7-3-1 or don’t.

If you don’t make the trade you still can go 8 skaters, lose Kerfoot plus his cap hit, and still have Hallander and the 7th.

Unless they are planning on using Kerfoot in the top 6 this year, going after McCann was awesome. Not going 7-3-1 to protect just Holl was a mistake.


Thanks for making my point exactly - no one on the exposed list is worth a 1st and a 3rd to additionally protect (not to mention Toronto doesn't have those picks so it becomes a top prospect then). & that's exactly what Dubas thought that it wasn't worth it - but that was Seattle's price. If Dubas didn't meet it, than Seattle takes who they want. & Kerfoot proved to be a valuable depth piece that can perform in the playoffs. So instead of giving up a 1st and a 3rd (or equivalent value that Seattle wanted), Dubas gave up a prospect that's worth maybe an early 3rd, and a 7th to get someone that he though Seattle would take, this not losing anyone from his roster. So would you rather paying a 1st and a 3rd or a 3rd and a 7th to keep your roster in tact that just finished 6th overall? I know which one smart GM's would pick.

As for losing Kerfoot or Holl, you're thinking too linear - as most users on here do. If they lose Kerfoot, it's also losing a 3C that plays a solid 2way game. How do you plan to replace that? There's not one in free agency that can do the same job for cheaper, and a trade will cost more than a 1st and a 3rd (which would have been the price to protect Kerfoot) - so you're either paying Seattle to let Toronto keep Kerfoot or you're paying more to find his replacement. Same goes for Holl - you think losing a top 4 defenceman (not Holl's skill but that's his role on Toronto) is gonna come cheaper than Hallander and a 7th? You absolutely nuts if you think it would. Defence options in free agency would cost far more than Holl's $2M cap hit, and a trade would be an insane price. So what option is there for a top 4 defence in that situation?

Kerfoot may be trade bait this off-season so it's worth keeping him around for that too. His contract is enticing because he makes less than his cap hit so for teams that have a lower budget he's more valuable - and with Toronto's connection to Arizona with Garland and Kuemper, Kerfoot could very well be a piece in that trade for them.

Bottom line is that it's much smarter to give up the value of a 3rd and 7th than a 1st and 3rd to keep your roster the same - McCann was never on the roster. His play won't be lost and won't affect the team. People just can't give GM's credit for thinking outside the box every now and then, but this was actually one of the smarter moves a GM has pulled off in awhile.
21 juill. 2021 à 19 h 54
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Quoting: TrueCanuck
Thanks for making my point exactly - no one on the exposed list is worth a 1st and a 3rd to additionally protect (not to mention Toronto doesn't have those picks so it becomes a top prospect then). & that's exactly what Dubas thought that it wasn't worth it - but that was Seattle's price. If Dubas didn't meet it, than Seattle takes who they want. & Kerfoot proved to be a valuable depth piece that can perform in the playoffs. So instead of giving up a 1st and a 3rd (or equivalent value that Seattle wanted), Dubas gave up a prospect that's worth maybe an early 3rd, and a 7th to get someone that he though Seattle would take, this not losing anyone from his roster. So would you rather paying a 1st and a 3rd or a 3rd and a 7th to keep your roster in tact that just finished 6th overall? I know which one smart GM's would pick.

As for losing Kerfoot or Holl, you're thinking too linear - as most users on here do. If they lose Kerfoot, it's also losing a 3C that plays a solid 2way game. How do you plan to replace that? There's not one in free agency that can do the same job for cheaper, and a trade will cost more than a 1st and a 3rd (which would have been the price to protect Kerfoot) - so you're either paying Seattle to let Toronto keep Kerfoot or you're paying more to find his replacement. Same goes for Holl - you think losing a top 4 defenceman (not Holl's skill but that's his role on Toronto) is gonna come cheaper than Hallander and a 7th? You absolutely nuts if you think it would. Defence options in free agency would cost far more than Holl's $2M cap hit, and a trade would be an insane price. So what option is there for a top 4 defence in that situation?

Kerfoot may be trade bait this off-season so it's worth keeping him around for that too. His contract is enticing because he makes less than his cap hit so for teams that have a lower budget he's more valuable - and with Toronto's connection to Arizona with Garland and Kuemper, Kerfoot could very well be a piece in that trade for them.

Bottom line is that it's much smarter to give up the value of a 3rd and 7th than a 1st and 3rd to keep your roster the same - McCann was never on the roster. His play won't be lost and won't affect the team. People just can't give GM's credit for thinking outside the box every now and then, but this was actually one of the smarter moves a GM has pulled off in awhile.



That’s where we differ, I would like to see this move as Hallander and a 7th to keep Kerfoot but knowing that this organization values Justin Holl more than Kerfoot and Jared McCann combined is something I don’t agree with.

If Kerfoot is still moved, the value must exceed Hallander+7th, or this is an lose no matter how you look at it.

They still have Kerfoot yes, but when you acquire McCann, you protect him over the guy that happens to play 4D. Saying Hallander+7th is the loss is not a good way of looking it. The Leafs made a poor decision valuing Holl over McCann/Kerfoot from an asset value perspective.
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21 juill. 2021 à 21 h 35
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
That’s where we differ, I would like to see this move as Hallander and a 7th to keep Kerfoot but knowing that this organization values Justin Holl more than Kerfoot and Jared McCann combined is something I don’t agree with.

If Kerfoot is still moved, the value must exceed Hallander+7th, or this is an lose no matter how you look at it.

They still have Kerfoot yes, but when you acquire McCann, you protect him over the guy that happens to play 4D. Saying Hallander+7th is the loss is not a good way of looking it. The Leafs made a poor decision valuing Holl over McCann/Kerfoot from an asset value perspective.


I think that's exactly where you look at it the wrong way..

You mention "asset value perspective" well, taking out the players names, what's harder to replace in the league right now: a 3rd line winger/centre, or a top 4 right handed defenceman? If they lose Holl, that leaves a massive whole on defence and they have no one in the organization to fill that spot. If you wanna sign a top 4 defenceman in free agency, well they're highly overpriced - look what Oleksiak and Larsson just got - so now you're adding a cap inflation to a team that's already cap strapped. If anything, this is proper asset value management because Dubas isn't allowing himself to spend too much on a player to fill a spot from a player the lose for nothing.

I honestly have nothing bad to say about the deal and any Leafs fan shouldn't either. Too many people on here look for the negative and when a GM thinks outside the box he's ridiculed instead of acknowledged for his creativity. Dubas and management liked their roster enough from last season that they didn't wanna lose anyone off it for free, and didn't feel comfortable of paying the price of a top prospect plus more to protect it. They did exactly what they wanted to do, goal achieved. Dubas got creative. Props to him.
21 juill. 2021 à 21 h 42
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Quoting: TrueCanuck
Do your homework next time - Toronto doesn't have either a 1st or a 3rd in this draft and they actually don't have a 3rd round pick until 2023 so the price would then turn to their top prospects like Robertson, Sandin, Amirov, etc which are absolutely not affordable to lose.

So to only lose Hallander who's maybe worth an early 3rd and a 7th seems a heck of a lot better than losing any one of their top guys.

& that roster that "didn't work" just finished 6th overall in the league and the guy they wanna keep around was their second best forward in the playoffs and is a good depth piece too. It made a lot of sense to want to keep the roster in tact actually.


I highly doubt Seattle is a stickler for which draft the picks come from.

As for Kerfoot, he was below replacement for the 2020-21 season with a WAR of a whopping 0.2. For the last 2 seasons, he was at about a 1.0 WAR.
Jared McCann on the other hand, had a 3.2 WAR this year and a 2.3 WAR. McCann has been very good both offensively and defensively for two straight seasons. Kerfoot had a very good offensive year last year, but was below replacement defensively this year and last year, while being below replacement offensively this year as well.

Take a look at the analytics. Look at the charts. Look at the tables. Look at whatever you want. They all say that McCann was the better player this year and by a very wide margin. So you tell me. Do you want another year of not getting past the first round, or to mix things up a bit and get a MUCH better player for your depth, which is already lacking.

Do your homework before you stubbornly decide to keep an extremely average guy over a very good player.
21 juill. 2021 à 22 h 4
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Quoting: TrueCanuck
I think that's exactly where you look at it the wrong way..

You mention "asset value perspective" well, taking out the players names, what's harder to replace in the league right now: a 3rd line winger/centre, or a top 4 right handed defenceman? If they lose Holl, that leaves a massive whole on defence and they have no one in the organization to fill that spot. If you wanna sign a top 4 defenceman in free agency, well they're highly overpriced - look what Oleksiak and Larsson just got - so now you're adding a cap inflation to a team that's already cap strapped. If anything, this is proper asset value management because Dubas isn't allowing himself to spend too much on a player to fill a spot from a player the lose for nothing.

I honestly have nothing bad to say about the deal and any Leafs fan shouldn't either. Too many people on here look for the negative and when a GM thinks outside the box he's ridiculed instead of acknowledged for his creativity. Dubas and management liked their roster enough from last season that they didn't wanna lose anyone off it for free, and didn't feel comfortable of paying the price of a top prospect plus more to protect it. They did exactly what they wanted to do, goal achieved. Dubas got creative. Props to him.


I also have nothing bad to say about the deal either. I am talking about this organizations and apparently your valuation of Justin Holl like he is some unicorn that can’t be easily replaced.

Since he came to Toronto, Jake Muzzin has only played 90 5v5 minutes with Travis Dermott. Goals when they're on the ice together: 7-0 Leafs. Yes, incredible small sample, but you can’t tell me Dermott can’t provide the same value as Holl.

Holl wasn't even a defenceman in the NHL until he was 27 years old. Dermott is 24 years old and has played 208 career NHL games.

Justin Holl plays in the top four but is carried by Jake Muzzin. The Maple Leafs defence improved because they signed T.J. Brodie and Zach Bogosian. Not because of Justin Holl.

And lastly I don’t even believe Seattle takes either Dermott or Holl if left exposed. There were better options. If the Leafs went 7-3-1 IMO they’d still have there D plus McCann and Kerfoot. I could see Joey Anderson being there pick.

My frustration lies with the thought process of keeping this unit together after such a terrible collapse against MTL.

Because if they end up trading Kerfoot for an upgrade it better be worth Hallander, the 7th, plus Kerfoot and whatever else is added to get Player X.
21 juill. 2021 à 23 h 2
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Quoting: JackAce91
I highly doubt Seattle is a stickler for which draft the picks come from.

As for Kerfoot, he was below replacement for the 2020-21 season with a WAR of a whopping 0.2. For the last 2 seasons, he was at about a 1.0 WAR.
Jared McCann on the other hand, had a 3.2 WAR this year and a 2.3 WAR. McCann has been very good both offensively and defensively for two straight seasons. Kerfoot had a very good offensive year last year, but was below replacement defensively this year and last year, while being below replacement offensively this year as well.

Take a look at the analytics. Look at the charts. Look at the tables. Look at whatever you want. They all say that McCann was the better player this year and by a very wide margin. So you tell me. Do you want another year of not getting past the first round, or to mix things up a bit and get a MUCH better player for your depth, which is already lacking.

Do your homework before you stubbornly decide to keep an extremely average guy over a very good player.


I never said Kerfoot was better than McCann so how bout you learn how to read first there kid. For all the analytics you wanna post, where was McCann in the playoffs when his team needed him? 1 assist in 6 games doesn't look too good, wanna tell me he was still good though? As I also said, Kerfoot fills a role - that role is a 3rd line centre. And losing him is harder to fill than losing McCann. Just because McCann can play centre, doesn't mean he should. He's a winger. He hasn't performed well at centre.

Toronto didn't choose to protect Kerfoot over McCann and I never commented on that - again, learnt o read there kid. Toronto decided to protect Justin Holl over both of them because his positional role - which is a top 4 right handed defenceman - is tougher to fill. McCann was never on the roster, so they didn't lose a player of their current NHL team. They lost a prospect who would likely have never made the team and a 7th round pick that likely never sees the NHL, big ****ing whoop. The team finished 6th in the NHL and was 1 game away from the second round. To panic over a move where the team kept that roster together over a mediocre prospect and a nothing pick is ludicrous. Stop with the negative comments all the damn time for nothing, you're what defines Leafs fans like this. I couldn't care less if they pass the first round or not, but to say it was a bad move to not lose a single NHL player off their roster in exchange for virtually nothing is insane.

Don't think so linear. Learn some hockey. Goodnight kid.
21 juill. 2021 à 23 h 11
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
I also have nothing bad to say about the deal either. I am talking about this organizations and apparently your valuation of Justin Holl like he is some unicorn that can’t be easily replaced.

Since he came to Toronto, Jake Muzzin has only played 90 5v5 minutes with Travis Dermott. Goals when they're on the ice together: 7-0 Leafs. Yes, incredible small sample, but you can’t tell me Dermott can’t provide the same value as Holl.

Holl wasn't even a defenceman in the NHL until he was 27 years old. Dermott is 24 years old and has played 208 career NHL games.

Justin Holl plays in the top four but is carried by Jake Muzzin. The Maple Leafs defence improved because they signed T.J. Brodie and Zach Bogosian. Not because of Justin Holl.

And lastly I don’t even believe Seattle takes either Dermott or Holl if left exposed. There were better options. If the Leafs went 7-3-1 IMO they’d still have there D plus McCann and Kerfoot. I could see Joey Anderson being there pick.

My frustration lies with the thought process of keeping this unit together after such a terrible collapse against MTL.

Because if they end up trading Kerfoot for an upgrade it better be worth Hallander, the 7th, plus Kerfoot and whatever else is added to get Player X.


As I said in comment #9 and it was my response to your comment, I don't think Holl has the skill of a top 4 defenceman, but that's the role they use him in and he's proven effective in it. Dermott has showed signs of progress but isn't a top 4 guy either, there's too many defensive lapses in his game and a 90 minute sample size doesn't change that - go look at the situations the pair of Muzzin/Dermott was in and it'll likely show more.

A top 4 defenceman is harder to replace than a third line winger (McCann). Just because McCann can play centre, doesn't mean he should - he's actually not a good centre at all. There's no on in the organization to fill Holl's role so unless they sign a big defenceman in free agency, they're not filling that role. & for a contending team with cap problems, a top 4 right handed defenceman isn't going to fit in. To me that says they're prioritizing defence over offence - how is that bad for this team? They're showing strides as progressing as a team, but Leaf fans are way too obnoxious about this kinda stuff. The smallest move there is and they make a huge deal out of keeping a team together that finished 6th overall, classic.

The teams fine as is, they didn't lose anything from last year. Now they can add to it to make it stronger.
21 juill. 2021 à 23 h 14
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Quoting: TrueCanuck
As I said in comment #9 and it was my response to your comment, I don't think Holl has the skill of a top 4 defenceman, but that's the role they use him in and he's proven effective in it. Dermott has showed signs of progress but isn't a top 4 guy either, there's too many defensive lapses in his game and a 90 minute sample size doesn't change that - go look at the situations the pair of Muzzin/Dermott was in and it'll likely show more.

A top 4 defenceman is harder to replace than a third line winger (McCann). Just because McCann can play centre, doesn't mean he should - he's actually not a good centre at all. There's no on in the organization to fill Holl's role so unless they sign a big defenceman in free agency, they're not filling that role. & for a contending team with cap problems, a top 4 right handed defenceman isn't going to fit in. To me that says they're prioritizing defence over offence - how is that bad for this team? They're showing strides as progressing as a team, but Leaf fans are way too obnoxious about this kinda stuff. The smallest move there is and they make a huge deal out of keeping a team together that finished 6th overall, classic.

The teams fine as is, they didn't lose anything from last year. Now they can add to it to make it stronger.


This says everything for me.

All good dude, agree to disagree
 
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