Eberle was a significant loss, but trading Leddy was addition by subtraction. He’s a replacement level defenseman and for some reason Yzerman gave up a 2nd for him - Still don’t get it.

We still need a 2LHD tho

Aho, Hickey, Salo and pretty much any UFA out there is an upgrade over Leddy at even strength. I’m not concerned about 2LD.

Aho is a 25 year old who has never been a NHL regular, Salo is pretty unknown and has no experience and Hickey hasn't been a NHL player for 2 years now so yes, the 2LD position is a major weakness for the Isles. You guys better hope Pelech doesn't get hurt or you're screwed

Hickey provided more value in 5 games at even strength last season than Leddy in 56 games.

I really don’t care that Aho/Salo have little experience. They’re both NHL ready and the isles can afford to insert one of them into the lineup at 2LD. Leddy was awful. I’m pretty sure most teams would be screwed if their best defenseman gets injured.

Yeah right yeah right yeah right yeah right welcome to the analytics cult everybody.

And this is simply untrue. Vegas for instance isn't in a deep trouble if Petro, their best d-man, misses, say, a month. So this is a lie. Sorry bud

Leddy was a very good offensive defenseman, but did have a pretty lousy campaign in the D-zone last year. Pelech and Pulock pulled the Isles through that.

Nick Leddy, acquired by DET, has not been a strong playdriver at all in recent years despite strong offensive zone playmaking, pretty skating, and prolific zone entry numbers. #LGRW pic.twitter.com/DfunzelpwF

— JFresh (@JFreshHockey) July 17, 2021

Not a big analytics fan, eh? I agree with you that in general these micro-stats are not in any way good ways to dissect the game of hockey, but it is true that Leddy was not so great defensively last year, even without the stats.

You didn’t need analytics to see that Leddy was by far the worst defenseman on the isles last season. The isles were significantly worse whenever he was on the ice.

I said most, which is true. Reading comprehension is important. If the Rangers lost Adam Fox, they would be screwed. There isn’t another top pair caliber D in the rangers lineup.

Leddy’s even strength offense is in the 32nd percentile over the last 3 years, he was a below average offensive defenseman.

Right, but he never was a Norris caliber defensive d-man. Hell, something like 4-5 years ago, he is the one who ran the Isles'PP.
Pelech, Pulock and Mayfield are great/elite at defense so Leddy not being the best at that isn't a big deal

And no, I hate analytics without context, people like JFresh or Dom I don't even know how to write his last name want to sound like geniuses and experts yet in fact they're two of the most uninformative and even uneducated people about the game.

Analytics without context provided by the eye test are worth as much as a fork when eating a soup. You cannot possibly convince me otherwise

If the isles lost pelech , they’d go with :
Dobson-Pulock
Aho/Salo-Mayfield

and heavily shelter their 3rd pair. With their system + elite goaltending, they wouldn’t be screwed

I think Zajac is also on his list of signings but still not 100% sure.

5 years ago is the last time Leddy was good a good offensive defenseman. It is a big deal that Leddy was a liability at both ends of the ice last season.

Leddy was tied for 22nd in points among defensemen this year with Devon Toews and Thomas Chabot. That's not below average, regardless of what the "advance stats" say.

Yeah, agreed but a few things:
-first, Pulock is better than Pelech. Slightly but still.
-second, we're still a rebuilding ish team so it isn't fair to take us as an example
-and third, I used the «the Isles would be screwed without Pelech» not as an argument against their D-core in general, but more so as an argument against their LD side. And even if Fox went down for, say, 3 weeks, I'd still trust Trouba on the top pair, yes he's overpaid, but he's quietly established himself as a strong defensive d-man over the past season and a half with us.

OTT should bring him in one season league min. Good mentor for their younger players.

It’s funny how you guys want to trash analytics because they lack context and then try to use points which is 10x worse.
Points:
- don’t account for any context
-ignore every event that led to a goal

He 100% was below average offensively last season. By far the worst defenseman on the isles and it wasn’t close.

When Pelech went down in 19-20, they immediately started struggling big time and were in potential danger of missing the playoffs if the trend had continued (and Covid hadn't happened). Remember, this is why Lou brought him Greene. And back then, you had Leddy and your team structure was the same.

This argument is flawed

Dobson can play LD, so they wouldn’t be screwed.

Signing Panarin and giving Goodrow a 6 year deal aren’t moves rebuilding teams make. They’re done with the rebuild.

Trouba is a #4 Dman and just because he’s physical does mean he’s good defensively. He’s actually below average.

Could we possibly interest you in a former Lou draft pick in Travis Dermott

Honestly in the Isles System I think Dermott would thrive as his defensive mindset seems perfect for them.

The isles struggled because Trotz put Leddy on the top pair and gave Boychuk a bigger role. Both were among the worst defenseman in the league at the time. If Pelech gets injured next season, the isles won’t have that problem since they do not have two defenseman on the roster worse than Leddy and Boychuk

So I was thinking of a 3-way trade between Toronto, Arizona, and the NYI

Where Timmins goes to Toronto
Bellows goes to Arizona
And Dermott goes to NYI with a pick going to Arzizona

Still trying to figure out all the kinks. But I like the move for all sides. Bellows gets a chance to play in the NHL away from Trotz, Dermott gets more ice time and under Trotz guidance could develop into something intriguing, Arizona gets more picks and Toronto gets a nice RD to potentially pair up with Muzzin or Sandin.

Just felt like throwing my 2 cents in:

Analytics are a VERY USEFUL TOOL.
But they are flawed.

The “eye test” is a VERY USEFUL TOOL.
But it is flawed.

You can’t use solely analytics to judge prospects for example. It’s a idiotic thing to use on its own for prospects.

You can’t use just the eye test for NHL players for example.
It’s a idiotic thing to use on its own for players.

You must use both imo. But you also have to judge the situation or player which is where the eye test “evolves” imo.

Take it like this. I’m going to use a very controversial take here too. Erik Karlsson is a very hard player to justify using solely analytics.

Karlsson even during some of his best years had very poor analytics with the Sens (Not all of his years, but at least from the charts I recall seeing the other month). A lot of Sharks fans see a ok game and then go look at Karlsson stats (adv.) and go look he’s dog****. But I continually try to point out this flaw. Early in the 2020/21 season Karlsson had a PHENOMENAL game. He looked amazing and everything was clicking and I believe he got a couple points. His advanced stats for that same game WERE BRUTAL. Yeah he got some a couple points and just looked sooooo gooooood…. But his analytics didn’t change and if anything they regressed.

Now he’s the other side of that same coin. Vlasic doesn’t have god awful adv. stats. They aren’t great, they’re pretty poor, but none the less. Yet Vlasic is just terrible to watch. He’s slow, poor decision making, loses his man or position a ton. I can go on. Yet his analytics value him around the same as Karlsson.

Now I’m not saying Karlsson is amazing because he doesn’t always look good and his analytics suggest the same or that Vlasic is worth his estimated “2-3 million dollar value according to analytics” because often I’d rather see Vlasic be benched.

I’m using them as an example. Not all players play a style that looks good on paper (adv stats). And not all players stand out on the eye test. For example Slavin from the discussion is an amazing example. He’s got great stats, but even if they aren’t the best in the entire league, Slavin flourishes on the eye test and then also has good analytics to suggest that he’s not a fluke. Whereas Karlsson often looks great on the eye test for a majority of a game but he makes mistakes and his style of play firstly doesn’t mesh with a bad team, and his adv stats aren’t great because he’s usually trying to do too much. But that doesn’t mean he’s the worst guy in the league.

I think you should use the eye test and pair it with adv stats. And for some players that situation should change. Use context, and I think there are some fantastic analytics that should be considered always. Quality of Competition is a great one when you pair with Quality of Time on Ice. Use them with your 5v5 impact and mesh those with the eye test.

I don’t think analytics are bad, and I don’t think they’re amazing. But you shouldn’t throw one or the other out.

Team Canada 23U

Keller-Suzuki-Kyrou
Comtois-Dubois-Batherson
Lafrenière-Dach-Thomas
Rasmussen-Byfield-Jost

Girard-Makar
Chychrun-Dobson
Smith-Fabbro

Hart
DiPietro

Extras: Bryam, Cozens, Drysdale, Hofer, Perfetti

Edit : Nvm I'm dumb Keller is American