These are the main points, and Sundqvist is playing in a fourth line role because he's one of the better checking lines, and Sundqvist doesn't not only play bottom 6 lines, because the fact the Blues start the 4th line on the ice at beginning of the game most of the time show why he doesn't that just a little bit of proof. If you want to go based on his teammates being Paul and Tierney and whoever else in the mix. All of those players are better than barbashev offensively, and in normal circumstances, and probably right now even though stats aren't up to date this year probably better than Clifford offensively too. Don't keep it narrow minded that Sundqvist plays fourth line because that's how bad he is, no Berube loves to spread out talent on lines based on what he wants that line to be overall. Hoffman is on the third line right now. Sanford is on the first line with O'Reilly he primarily played with O'Reilly the past 2 years, I wouldn't put him above a 3rd liner in most cases, honestly Sundqvist night in night out outperforms him. This season Sundqvist has had a 60.9% Defensive Zone Start, so the fact that he's in his zone more time than in the offensive zone doesn't show poor metrics he just starts in his own zone a ton. They constantly put that line up against top lines. You'll see it often. Obviously I know Connor Brown is okay, but you see the stats up top.



If he's so good why does the team have a more effective offensive rating with him off the ice?



Why is it that offenses against Connor Brown have a +19 percent on the PK and without him on the PK it's a +9 Percent. No granted the PK of Ottawa is still bad either way, but it's worse with Connor Brown which proves my point. Only thing I will say and I've already spammed enough charts is that Brown has a +16 with on PP effectiveness. The fact that the 4 players that Brown played with the most was Tkachuk, Pageau, Tierney, Paul. And it was actually primarily Paul and Tkachuk as the top 2. Tkachuk is one of the best players on the team, and one of the most effective forwards right now. The top 4 players Sundqvist played with were Alexander Steen, MacKenzie MacEachern, Samuel Blais, Ivan Barbashev. Ivan Barbashev being the highest one and he has some very bad statlines on BOTH ends of the ice. I'm not gonna even get into how bad he is on measurements. Blais and Steen are okay, they aren't the worst but both of them are still below average. MacEachern is at best a Top 6 AHL player. Then when Sundqvist moves up the lineup he does very well because he has players around him, but I'm just saying the PK numbers speak for themselves that is an abysmal job by Connor Brown, and those are isolated numbers that has nothing to do with goaltending. Those are isolated numbers. Sundqvist over the past 2 years has had over 60% in Defensive Zone Start times. 58% the year before. They primarily use his line as a defensive line. Connor Brown doesn't have that great of a line.

Vince Dunn for the most part has had Robert Bortuzzo as his linemate with a mix in of Pietrangelo from time to time. Dunn's RAPM over 4 years has been exceptional. Mike Reilly your own fanbase on this server has called him "the worst defenseman on the team" If that's what you want us to downgrade to for if you want to say Brown is better, a very small upgrade to Brown when the gap between Reilly, and Dunn is that big. Especially when for upgrading at a very small portion we are taking on an extra million dollars that we do not have is preposterous for the Blues. Like I get where you are coming from, but the dynamic of the Blues is built on defense. We don't need Sundqvist to play offense all the time. Schwartz-Schenn-Kyrou line has been phenomenal, Hoffman-Thomas-Bozak/Blais line will find it's way. Sanford-O'Reilly-Perron line has been dynamic as well. But what I come back to on this deal, and it was even said by Doug Armstrong you want Vince Dunn it's going to cost you a first round pick.

there are defnitely teams that would give up a first for connor brown

These are the main points, and Sundqvist is playing in a fourth line role because he's one of the better checking lines, and Sundqvist doesn't not only play bottom 6 lines, because the fact the Blues start the 4th line on the ice at beginning of the game most of the time show why he doesn't that just a little bit of proof. If you want to go based on his teammates being Paul and Tierney and whoever else in the mix. All of those players are better than barbashev offensively, and in normal circumstances, and probably right now even though stats aren't up to date this year probably better than Clifford offensively too. Don't keep it narrow minded that Sundqvist plays fourth line because that's how bad he is, no Berube loves to spread out talent on lines based on what he wants that line to be overall. Hoffman is on the third line right now. Sanford is on the first line with O'Reilly he primarily played with O'Reilly the past 2 years, I wouldn't put him above a 3rd liner in most cases, honestly Sundqvist night in night out outperforms him. This season Sundqvist has had a 60.9% Defensive Zone Start, so the fact that he's in his zone more time than in the offensive zone doesn't show poor metrics he just starts in his own zone a ton. They constantly put that line up against top lines. You'll see it often. Obviously I know Connor Brown is okay, but you see the stats up top.



If he's so good why does the team have a more effective offensive rating with him off the ice?



Why is it that offenses against Connor Brown have a +19 percent on the PK and without him on the PK it's a +9 Percent. No granted the PK of Ottawa is still bad either way, but it's worse with Connor Brown which proves my point. Only thing I will say and I've already spammed enough charts is that Brown has a +16 with on PP effectiveness. The fact that the 4 players that Brown played with the most was Tkachuk, Pageau, Tierney, Paul. And it was actually primarily Paul and Tkachuk as the top 2. Tkachuk is one of the best players on the team, and one of the most effective forwards right now. The top 4 players Sundqvist played with were Alexander Steen, MacKenzie MacEachern, Samuel Blais, Ivan Barbashev. Ivan Barbashev being the highest one and he has some very bad statlines on BOTH ends of the ice. I'm not gonna even get into how bad he is on measurements. Blais and Steen are okay, they aren't the worst but both of them are still below average. MacEachern is at best a Top 6 AHL player. Then when Sundqvist moves up the lineup he does very well because he has players around him, but I'm just saying the PK numbers speak for themselves that is an abysmal job by Connor Brown, and those are isolated numbers that has nothing to do with goaltending. Those are isolated numbers. Sundqvist over the past 2 years has had over 60% in Defensive Zone Start times. 58% the year before. They primarily use his line as a defensive line. Connor Brown doesn't have that great of a line.

Vince Dunn for the most part has had Robert Bortuzzo as his linemate with a mix in of Pietrangelo from time to time. Dunn's RAPM over 4 years has been exceptional. Mike Reilly your own fanbase on this server has called him "the worst defenseman on the team" If that's what you want us to downgrade to for if you want to say Brown is better, a very small upgrade to Brown when the gap between Reilly, and Dunn is that big. Especially when for upgrading at a very small portion we are taking on an extra million dollars that we do not have is preposterous for the Blues. Like I get where you are coming from, but the dynamic of the Blues is built on defense. We don't need Sundqvist to play offense all the time. Schwartz-Schenn-Kyrou line has been phenomenal, Hoffman-Thomas-Bozak/Blais line will find it's way. Sanford-O'Reilly-Perron line has been dynamic as well. But what I come back to on this deal, and it was even said by Doug Armstrong you want Vince Dunn it's going to cost you a first round pick.

there are defnitely teams that would give up a first for connor brown

Well that might be the case for you, but Blues aren't one of them. Blues will not pay a first round pick for a guy who on our squad, might not even have a chance at a third line spot. Because of Tarasenko coming back. Kyrou, Hoffman, Perron, Tarasenko, Sanford all have pretty much overall guaranteed spots. and the other side I'd be sure seeing Bozak on the wing as he was before. Connor Brown in my opinion and in a lot people's opinion is literally Tkachuk, and Pageau's creation. If you put him on the Blues, he won't have the same production unless he gets carried. Blues won't put him on the top line. You say he's better than Sundqvist at PK, well obviously if you look at the graphs I just showed you actually he's pretty abysmal. If you think Connor Brown is worth 3.6M as a third line and getting a first round pick doubtful. Dunn is with all things considered Number 2 Pairing on the Ottawa Senators. Mike Rielly is a cap dump. Sensible guy can say whatever tf he wants both of you can too. You want a first round pick for a guy who on toronto couldn't put those numbers up, but when he gets put with better players he gets those type of numbers. It's easily laughable he wouldn't produce that much in St.Louis. If you put him on with someone not named Tkachuk he definitely won't put up that many points.

Vince Dunn has 3 Goals, 2 Assists in 9 games as a defenseman. Your "First Round Pick, First Line Stud who is claimed to be an Ottawa Hero" has 4 assists in 10 games, oh and did I mention 2 of them were secondary, and 2 of them were created by Tkachuk himself. All Brown did was pass it up the ice, and Tkachuk created his own play out of nothing. Does that sound like an Offensive effective player? Does that sound like a Player the Blues need or want with how many wingers we have? Or is this just I want him so we are just gonna throw random players in that don't make sense for the other team BUUUUUT I want that player and I don't wanna give up anything real good because well Dunn got benched so he has to be crap.

Think. Sensibleguy is now on my ignore list, because he's like the back of my dad's car right now. Full of Sh*t. 43 points doesn't mean jack squat when you have Tkachuk as a linemate for the majority over 9/10s of his Time on ice. If you take away a top player (aka his time in Toronto) he doesn't give the same amount of production. But you are Ottawa fans and you guys are known to overvalue your players. I think you could ask anyone on Capfriendly I think very few teams would pay a first round pick for Connor Brown when Paul Stastny didn't even get a first and he's had better production, and a better track record than both players. Plus he runs the line, not feeds off of his linemates like Connor Brown.

I agree to disagree. Honestly Alfie has some good points, but you don't want to listen to my points, so I think you've kind of lost me. You aren't speaking reason. you are only speaking reason from an Ottawa point of view. You don't watch the Blues which is proven in how you say things. You say Sundqvist plays bottom lines, well that's completely false because all 3 periods. Sundqvist's line started the period right up against the top line of every team we've played except for LA.

jesus murphy dont take is so personally, it doesnt make sense for the blues anyways because they're already fine at the wing, sundqvist is a good player aswell so it doesnt really make sens to move him. Ill be honest im not going to read all of that lmao but i will say Stasny didnt get a first in return because hes got 1 year left and vegas was clearly selling him, browns a pretty good middle 6 winger on a fair contract for 3 more years, all i was saying was the value was probably alrightish

Well that might be the case for you, but Blues aren't one of them. Blues will not pay a first round pick for a guy who on our squad, might not even have a chance at a third line spot. Because of Tarasenko coming back. Kyrou, Hoffman, Perron, Tarasenko, Sanford all have pretty much overall guaranteed spots. and the other side I'd be sure seeing Bozak on the wing as he was before. Connor Brown in my opinion and in a lot people's opinion is literally Tkachuk, and Pageau's creation. If you put him on the Blues, he won't have the same production unless he gets carried. Blues won't put him on the top line. You say he's better than Sundqvist at PK, well obviously if you look at the graphs I just showed you actually he's pretty abysmal. If you think Connor Brown is worth 3.6M as a third line and getting a first round pick doubtful. Dunn is with all things considered Number 2 Pairing on the Ottawa Senators. Mike Rielly is a cap dump. Sensible guy can say whatever tf he wants both of you can too. You want a first round pick for a guy who on toronto couldn't put those numbers up, but when he gets put with better players he gets those type of numbers. It's easily laughable he wouldn't produce that much in St.Louis. If you put him on with someone not named Tkachuk he definitely won't put up that many points.

Vince Dunn has 3 Goals, 2 Assists in 9 games as a defenseman. Your "First Round Pick, First Line Stud who is claimed to be an Ottawa Hero" has 4 assists in 10 games, oh and did I mention 2 of them were secondary, and 2 of them were created by Tkachuk himself. All Brown did was pass it up the ice, and Tkachuk created his own play out of nothing. Does that sound like an Offensive effective player? Does that sound like a Player the Blues need or want with how many wingers we have? Or is this just I want him so we are just gonna throw random players in that don't make sense for the other team BUUUUUT I want that player and I don't wanna give up anything real good because well Dunn got benched so he has to be crap.

Think. Sensibleguy is now on my ignore list, because he's like the back of my dad's car right now. Full of Sh*t. 43 points doesn't mean jack squat when you have Tkachuk as a linemate for the majority over 9/10s of his Time on ice. If you take away a top player (aka his time in Toronto) he doesn't give the same amount of production. But you are Ottawa fans and you guys are known to overvalue your players. I think you could ask anyone on Capfriendly I think very few teams would pay a first round pick for Connor Brown when Paul Stastny didn't even get a first and he's had better production, and a better track record than both players. Plus he runs the line, not feeds off of his linemates like Connor Brown.

I agree to disagree. Honestly Alfie has some good points, but you don't want to listen to my points, so I think you've kind of lost me. You aren't speaking reason. you are only speaking reason from an Ottawa point of view. You don't watch the Blues which is proven in how you say things. You say Sundqvist plays bottom lines, well that's completely false because all 3 periods. Sundqvist's line started the period right up against the top line of every team we've played except for LA.

jesus murphy dont take is so personally, it doesnt make sense for the blues anyways because they're already fine at the wing, sundqvist is a good player aswell so it doesnt really make sens to move him. Ill be honest im not going to read all of that lmao but i will say Stasny didnt get a first in return because hes got 1 year left and vegas was clearly selling him, browns a pretty good middle 6 winger on a fair contract for 3 more years, all i was saying was the value was probably alrightish

"he's like the back of my dad's car right now"

You're arguing with a kid, this isn't worth it, lol

"he's like the back of my dad's car right now"

You're arguing with a kid, this isn't worth it, lol

Value is yes alrightish, but Ottawa is winning this one by quite a bit, and that's something Sensibleguy, and Alfie both don't understand. You are winning this because you are gaining pieces you need, but Blues are losing the deal due to one Brown not being a fit in St.Louis, and 2 Dunn being a valuable asset as a active defenseman for the Blues. Sensibleguy doesn't want to reason, which is why it was good talking to you more. i agree with you, and I like your perspective. It's rather Sensibleguy wasn't looking at it from Blues perspective which in all of the trades Ive seen him do he never has only looks at it one dimensional and thats in ottawa's position. (Most of his deals aren't that great either).

idk the blues fan in me thinks brown would be a really nice piece in the middle 6, works hard, checks hard, can skate well. It wouldnt make sense for STL now because you're taking 2 pieces that can contribute when the blues inevitably go on another playoff run this postseason and turning it into one that wouldnt even really have an effect on the team because of how deep the wings are already. With that being said however, one of dunn or sundqvist are probably going to be gone in the expansion draft and if this deal was proposed in the offseason it would be waaay more likely. The sens would need to add a more enticing second piece than mike reilly, but the blues get a solid middle 6 guy with a reasonable cap hit for what he brings with some term to give them some flexibility to re-sign other guys in the offseason, in exhange for a guy they would have lost anyways and another depth contributor. Scott Perunovic could probably instantly step in right now for Dunn if were being completely honest and i think he has a higher ceiling in the long run anyways. I like dunn but if the sens added another decent piece instead of reilly (maybe abramov or another okay prospect) i wouldnt totally be mad at this.

idk the blues fan in me thinks brown would be a really nice piece in the middle 6, works hard, checks hard, can skate well. It wouldnt make sense for STL now because you're taking 2 pieces that can contribute when the blues inevitably go on another playoff run this postseason and turning it into one that wouldnt even really have an effect on the team because of how deep the wings are already. With that being said however, one of dunn or sundqvist are probably going to be gone in the expansion draft and if this deal was proposed in the offseason it would be waaay more likely. The sens would need to add a more enticing second piece than mike reilly, but the blues get a solid middle 6 guy with a reasonable cap hit for what he brings with some term to give them some flexibility to re-sign other guys in the offseason, in exhange for a guy they would have lost anyways and another depth contributor. Scott Perunovic could probably instantly step in right now for Dunn if were being completely honest and i think he has a higher ceiling in the long run anyways. I like dunn but if the sens added another decent piece instead of reilly (maybe abramov or another okay prospect) i wouldnt totally be mad at this.

It's obvious he has confirmation bias, and you're not going to convince him otherwise. The important thing to remember is, this isn't real. if you're enjoying having this discussion with him, then that's cool, but if it's causing you to be irritated, just stop replying, and let him have the last post. win/win