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Montreal Canadiens Season Discussion Thread

28 août 2021 à 19 h 0
#1351
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Quoting: pinslack
i.e. we match but then trade him to ARI?


Offer sheeted players can’t be traded for a year after the deal is signed. Also, stop it.
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28 août 2021 à 19 h 44
#1352
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Just let him go. He doesn't want to play here if he signed that contract and frankly after today, Im done with him.

Im all for players using OS to get what they deserve. (Aho was being lowballed at the time), but KK is not worth anywhere close to 6,1M and he put the team in a major cap hell by signing this. Big difference.

I sincerely hope the Habs don't match.
28 août 2021 à 19 h 49
#1353
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Quoting: F50marco
Just let him go. He doesn't want to play here if he signed that contract and frankly after today, Im done with him.

Im all for players using OS to get what they deserve. (Aho was being lowballed at the time), but KK is not worth anywhere close to 6,1M and he put the team in a major cap hell by signing this. Big difference.

I sincerely hope the Habs don't match.


From how the Canes structured it, it’s clear they’re just doing it to take revenge on Montréal. They don’t actually expect them not to match it.

And Kotkaniemi isn’t stupid. He knows he’s staying in Montréal. If you were offered a 140% pay raise from what you would likely normally get as a salary, AND you have a 90% chance of staying with your current job, are you saying you wouldn’t take it? This isn’t Aho, who just wanted his contract over and done with and was able to walk himself to UFA. This is a team willing to give you way more than what the market should dictate.
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28 août 2021 à 20 h 48
#1354
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
From how the Canes structured it, it’s clear they’re just doing it to take revenge on Montréal. They don’t actually expect them not to match it.

And Kotkaniemi isn’t stupid. He knows he’s staying in Montréal. If you were offered a 140% pay raise from what you would likely normally get as a salary, AND you have a 90% chance of staying with your current job, are you saying you wouldn’t take it? This isn’t Aho, who just wanted his contract over and done with and was able to walk himself to UFA. This is a team willing to give you way more than what the market should dictate.


This was dirty by KK and his agent. Like I said, a player like Aho getting fair value while the Canes had cap space and were lowballing him, is what OS should be used for. Aho used it to his advantage in the proper way. KK just put his team in a very precarious position by doing this. Not only that, his contract is wayyy over his talent and resume level.

Just remember, KK could have not accepted this OS but then used it as leverage to sign a better deal with MTL. He didn't do that. This was dirty by KK and his agent and if Im MB, I let him go. Use those picks to get a Dvorak, Eichel, etc whatever replacement player necessary.

If KK is matched, I want him gone after next year. I don't want players like that on my team.
28 août 2021 à 20 h 57
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Quoting: F50marco
Just let him go. He doesn't want to play here if he signed that contract and frankly after today, Im done with him.

Im all for players using OS to get what they deserve. (Aho was being lowballed at the time), but KK is not worth anywhere close to 6,1M and he put the team in a major cap hell by signing this. Big difference.

I sincerely hope the Habs don't match.


So you’re telling me you wouldn't want 6mil+ until UFA instead of bridge deals, come on, of course Kk’s going to take the money, i have no problem with Kk’s actions, Mb WILL and SHOULD match, I’d blame MB for not signing Kk before the OS, not Kk for signing a good OS
28 août 2021 à 21 h 10
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
So you’re telling me you wouldn't want 6mil+ until UFA instead of bridge deals, come on, of course Kk’s going to take the money, i have no problem with Kk’s actions, Mb WILL and SHOULD match, I’d blame MB for not signing Kk before the OS, not Kk for signing a good OS


These are millionaires, pardon me for not shedding a tear for them trying to go from 2-3M to 6M over night when they haven't even earned it. KK accepting this deal really puts Habs in a tough spot. How are the going to fit him under the cap?? They have no problem paying him the money. Thats not the issue. Its the cap and repercussions on his teammates that this will cause.

KK's greed (and unmerited sense of self worth) will get other players on the Habs traded to places they didn't want to be as a result.

If I'm Byron or Lehkonen or Kulak, etc, Im furious at him. The other guys on the team who are making less than he will be, are also fuming because he's not worth half of that contract. If I'm KK, I wouldn't want MTL to match. This is going to piss off a lot of people, players, management, fans, etc.

I actually hope fans boo him IF he plays for MTL this year. Just to remind him, money isn't everything. Enjoy the money and a year of hell to go with it.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 17
#1357
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
So you’re telling me you wouldn't want 6mil+ until UFA instead of bridge deals, come on, of course Kk’s going to take the money, i have no problem with Kk’s actions, Mb WILL and SHOULD match, I’d blame MB for not signing Kk before the OS, not Kk for signing a good OS


I also don't blame the Canes at all one bit. I would have done the exact same thing. I blame KK for not declining, but before doing us using the offer as leverage to sign a better contract with the Habs then they were originally offering.

This was dirty by KK and his agent. Habs have 7 days, during the time when most teams in the league have already setup their rosters, to move out 3-4M in cap if they want to match the offer.

Canes simply had to match Aho, which was tough cause they're cheap. Habs have to alter their team just to fit the player into the roster at a cost that is 3 times what he's worth.......

No joke, Im booing KK at any game im at this season. I want the Habs to not match but if they do, trade him as soon as possible after this year.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 17
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Quoting: F50marco
These are millionaires, pardon me for not shedding a tear for them trying to go from 2-3M to 6M over night when they haven't even earned it. KK accepting this deal really puts Habs in a tough spot. How are the going to fit him under the cap?? They have no problem paying him the money. Thats not the issue. Its the cap and repercussions on his teammates that this will cause.

KK's greed (and unmerited sense of self worth) will get other players on the Habs traded to places they didn't want to be as a result.

If I'm Byron or Lehkonen or Kulak, etc, Im furious at him. The other guys on the team who are making less than he will be, are also fuming because he's not worth half of that contract. If I'm KK, I wouldn't want MTL to match. This is going to piss off a lot of people, players, management, fans, etc.

I actually hope fans boo him IF he plays for MTL this year. Just to remind him, money isn't everything. Enjoy the money and a year of hell to go with it.


Were not in that though of a spot this year, until Byron comes back were fine and then I’m pretty sure we’d just need to waive a guys, then next year we trade one of our 20 million wingers and MB works his magic and we fit under the cap. Also being mad at Kk is going for the obvious target while not taking time to fully process the info, there’s nothing wrong with what he did
28 août 2021 à 21 h 19
#1359
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Quoting: F50marco
This was dirty by KK and his agent. Like I said, a player like Aho getting fair value while the Canes had cap space and were lowballing him, is what OS should be used for. Aho used it to his advantage in the proper way. KK just put his team in a very precarious position by doing this. Not only that, his contract is wayyy over his talent and resume level.

Just remember, KK could have not accepted this OS but then used it as leverage to sign a better deal with MTL. He didn't do that. This was dirty by KK and his agent and if Im MB, I let him go. Use those picks to get a Dvorak, Eichel, etc whatever replacement player necessary.

If KK is matched, I want him gone after next year. I don't want players like that on my team.


How on earth could he get a better deal with the habs? He makes a bunch of money in the short term, and still leaves himself open to cashing in on a long-term deal.
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28 août 2021 à 21 h 20
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Modifié 28 août 2021 à 21 h 26
Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
The Montréal Canadiens fan base is the worst in hockey. Not because of how annoying they are to deal with, or because they overvalue their players so much, but because a lot of them are the saltiest and most bitter creatures on the face of the earth. They boo every single somewhat notable former player they play against, no matter the manner of their parting with the franchise or what that player did for the organization. Now these pieces of **** are jumping on our sweet Jesperi and trying to run him out of town because of the faintest idea that he could not be a hab. Are these people really saying that they would turn down an extra $7 million than what they would’ve made, while still having a very, very good chance of remaining in the organization that they love?

I’m just done with this. There are what, like 30+ habs fans on this site, and I can count the amount of bearable habs fans on my hands.


Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
Since there seems to be some misinformation, the habs can easily match the offer sheet now, with minimal movement to their roster, other than waiving a player a few months from the start of the season. (Assuming that there are no injuries at that point)

The contract is a massive headache next season, but the habs still have a year to figure that out.


I’ll bring these in here since they’re valid points
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28 août 2021 à 21 h 24
#1361
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Quoting: F50marco
These are millionaires, pardon me for not shedding a tear for them trying to go from 2-3M to 6M over night when they haven't even earned it. KK accepting this deal really puts Habs in a tough spot. How are the going to fit him under the cap?? They have no problem paying him the money. Thats not the issue. Its the cap and repercussions on his teammates that this will cause.

KK's greed (and unmerited sense of self worth) will get other players on the Habs traded to places they didn't want to be as a result.

If I'm Byron or Lehkonen or Kulak, etc, Im furious at him. The other guys on the team who are making less than he will be, are also fuming because he's not worth half of that contract. If I'm KK, I wouldn't want MTL to match. This is going to piss off a lot of people, players, management, fans, etc.

I actually hope fans boo him IF he plays for MTL this year. Just to remind him, money isn't everything. Enjoy the money and a year of hell to go with it.


You’re seriously asking someone to not accept an extra $3.5 million because the cap situation gets a bit tighter? This contract doesn’t do much negatively this season, and if he really wanted to prioritize the team’s cap situation over himself, then he could take less money next year when the cap situation gets bad.
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28 août 2021 à 21 h 25
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
How on earth could he get a better deal with the habs? He makes a bunch of money in the short term, and still leaves himself open to cashing in on a long-term deal.


Negotiation. Its a thing.

KK: Hey remember that offer sheet I told you about? I don't want to sign it but I want a better deal. 4x4 or Im signing it.
MB: Well KK thats more than I want but seeing as you have an OS with another team, I would rather sign this then a 6x1 deal. OK lets sign this.

Im all for players getting paid WHEN THEY'VE EARNED IT. Are you happy if Kulak gets paid 10M a year? No of course your not. We would be picketing outside the Bell Centre for MB to be fired. But apparently KK getting 6M+ for the next 5 years minimum when he had an abysmal season is ok?

Of yeah by the way, guess what Suzuki costs now........ he's asking for 10M on his next contract because of this and frankly I don't blame him.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 28
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Were not in that though of a spot this year, until Byron comes back were fine and then I’m pretty sure we’d just need to waive a guys, then next year we trade one of our 20 million wingers and MB works his magic and we fit under the cap. Also being mad at Kk is going for the obvious target while not taking time to fully process the info, there’s nothing wrong with what he did


Are you kidding me? Waive WHO? Byron? No one wants him. Lehkonen? Well great we just lost a player for nothing. This had ripple effects on our current roster and future roster. This is was not cool by KK.

I don't blame a player for taking the money. That doesn't mean I should be happy with the way he went about it. He did the Habs dirty here with the timing of this deal. But good for him.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 30
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Quoting: F50marco
Negotiation. Its a thing.

KK: Hey remember that offer sheet I told you about? I don't want to sign it but I want a better deal. 4x4 or Im signing it.
MB: Well KK thats more than I want but seeing as you have an OS with another team, I would rather sign this then a 6x1 deal. OK lets sign this.

Im all for players getting paid WHEN THEY'VE EARNED IT. Are you happy if Kulak gets paid 10M a year? No of course your not. We would be picketing outside the Bell Centre for MB to be fired. But apparently KK getting 6M+ for the next 5 years minimum when he had an abysmal season is ok?

Of yeah by the way, guess what Suzuki costs now........ he's asking for 10M on his next contract because of this and frankly I don't blame him.


4 x 4 is not a better deal. This contract means that Kotkaniemi is making at least $6 million every year for the next 4 years.

Of course I’m not happy. I’m pissed that the Canes put us in this position. But I’m not blaming Kotkaniemi for accepting the contract that was offered to him.

And is Kotkaniemi worth his contract? No he isn’t. But is it still a smarter thing to match it than it is to take the compensation? Yes, it is. I’d rather overpay KK than lose him for a terrible return.
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28 août 2021 à 21 h 31
#1365
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Quoting: F50marco
Are you kidding me? Waive WHO? Byron? No one wants him. Lehkonen? Well great we just lost a player for nothing. This had ripple effects on our current roster and future roster. This is was not cool by KK.

I don't blame a player for taking the money. That doesn't mean I should be happy with the way he went about it. He did the Habs dirty here with the timing of this deal. But good for him.


When Byron gets back from injury all the habs need to do is waive one person and go with a 22 man roster.
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28 août 2021 à 21 h 32
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
4 x 4 is not a better deal. This contract means that Kotkaniemi is making at least $6 million every year for the next 4 years.

Of course I’m not happy. I’m pissed that the Canes put us in this position. But I’m not blaming Kotkaniemi for accepting the contract that was offered to him.

And is Kotkaniemi worth his contract? No he isn’t. But is it still a smarter thing to match it than it is to take the compensation? Yes, it is. I’d rather overpay KK than lose him for a terrible return.


Exactly, this is the correct take on the situation, there’s no short term cap problem and long term MB can figure it out, we need Kotkaniemi to have some center depth
28 août 2021 à 21 h 38
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
You’re seriously asking someone to not accept an extra $3.5 million because the cap situation gets a bit tighter? This contract doesn’t do much negatively this season, and if he really wanted to prioritize the team’s cap situation over himself, then he could take less money next year when the cap situation gets bad.


Are you serious right now? Habs OS Brayden Point more money and he didn't accept. Yes don't take the stupid deal that pays you more than your worth because now you have to deal with those expectations.

Money isn't everything. KK was destined for a huge pay raise this year and in coming years. He chose to get it now when he hadn't even earned it ONE SINGLE BIT. Yes that is a selfish player.

There is a reason why players don't sign OS unless merited. It paints a poor reflection of the player that he's out for money and nothing else.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 43
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
4 x 4 is not a better deal. This contract means that Kotkaniemi is making at least $6 million every year for the next 4 years.

Of course I’m not happy. I’m pissed that the Canes put us in this position. But I’m not blaming Kotkaniemi for accepting the contract that was offered to him.

And is Kotkaniemi worth his contract? No he isn’t. But is it still a smarter thing to match it than it is to take the compensation? Yes, it is. I’d rather overpay KK than lose him for a terrible return.


Canes? Why on earth are you mad at the Canes? THE HABS LITERALLY DID THE THING TO THEM FIRST WHEN NO OTHER TEAMS DO OFFER SHEETS....

Canes did nothing wrong here. This should have been foreseen by MB but of course he was late to the game yet again.....
28 août 2021 à 21 h 46
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Quoting: F50marco
Canes? Why on earth are you mad at the Canes? THE HABS LITERALLY DID THE THING TO THEM FIRST WHEN NO OTHER TEAMS DO OFFER SHEETS....

Canes did nothing wrong here. This should have been foreseen by MB but of course he was late to the game yet again.....


Because the Canes are the one that enticed Kk with the offer sheet, the Canes or MB are the logical people to be mad at
28 août 2021 à 21 h 49
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Exactly, this is the correct take on the situation, there’s no short term cap problem and long term MB can figure it out, we need Kotkaniemi to have some center depth


I disagree. There are plenty of other options out there through trade. He doesn't not NEED to match.

"This contract means that Kotkaniemi is making at least $6 million every year for the next 4 years." - This isn't true. If he scores 35 points next year who the hell is going to pay him 6M the following year?

Timo Meier's QO is something like 10M or whatever, is anyone going to sign him to that? No.

There is nothing wrong with a player getting paid, Sebastien Aho used his on July 1st when Carolina had tons of cap space to sign his offer sheet. KK used his with 1 month to go before training camp to a contract that the Habs literally have to make squeeze everyone to make space for, and to a contract that is GROSSLY overpaying him.

Im all for the player getting paid in virtually ever scenario. This is the one scenario where Im on the management side. This tactic was dirtyyyyyyy.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 52
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Because the Canes are the one that enticed Kk with the offer sheet, the Canes or MB are the logical people to be mad at


The team retaliating for being sucker'd on a previous deal are the ones to blame? You guys are too much.....

MB can be blames for not foreseeing that he should have got his deal signed earlier but then again, I don't exactly blame MB for not expecting Carolina to grossly OS KK either.......

KK could have used this as leverage to sign a very good market value deal. He chose to go wayy beyond that. That's SELFISH.
28 août 2021 à 21 h 53
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Quoting: F50marco
The team retaliating for being sucker'd on a previous deal are the ones to blame? You guys are too much.....

MB can be blames for not foreseeing that he should have got his deal signed earlier but then again, I don't exactly blame MB for not expecting Carolina to grossly OS KK either.......

KK could have used this as leverage to sign a very good market value deal. He chose to go wayy beyond that. That's SELFISH.


Are you sure that you aren’t Lou Lamiorello’s burner account?
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28 août 2021 à 21 h 59
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
When Byron gets back from injury all the habs need to do is waive one person and go with a 22 man roster.


and they are literally right up to the cap at that point......... forget trade deadline acquisitions. Forget easy call ups when injuries happen. But more importantly and you agreed with me on this, what about next year? How much is Suzuki getting now? What happens when KK scores 41 points and demands 6M+ again next year?

IF KK signed an offer sheet on July 1st, I'd be wayyyyy more forgiving. The team had cap space, Danault wasn't coming back, etc. etc. After the team signs a bunch of players and training camp starts in a month? That put the team in a bind gong forward that they shouldn't have had to be in and didn't plan for.

The ramifications of this are far deeper than you think. The timing was terrible.
28 août 2021 à 22 h 0
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Quoting: Kotkaniemi15
Are you sure that you aren’t Lou Lamiorello’s burner account?


Ok calm down. You don't have to agree with me.
29 août 2021 à 11 h 24
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Quoting: F50marco
and they are literally right up to the cap at that point......... forget trade deadline acquisitions. Forget easy call ups when injuries happen. But more importantly and you agreed with me on this, what about next year? How much is Suzuki getting now? What happens when KK scores 41 points and demands 6M+ again next year?

IF KK signed an offer sheet on July 1st, I'd be wayyyyy more forgiving. The team had cap space, Danault wasn't coming back, etc. etc. After the team signs a bunch of players and training camp starts in a month? That put the team in a bind gong forward that they shouldn't have had to be in and didn't plan for.

The ramifications of this are far deeper than you think. The timing was terrible.
So what i'm going to say about this whole situation comes from a vaguely different perspective, and it is not particularly meant to be a "well, you're wrong, and here's why" sort of deal. But my take on this whole thing devolves into two related but semi-distinct points:

1) Jesperi Kotkaniemi should really be trying to make as much money as he can, at the end of the day, because the team he plays for is certainly going to try and bilk him out of as much of it as they think they can get away with.
It's that sort of line of thinking, that players need to pay their dues before they can make it big, that led to this current system of restricted free agency, along with this nebulous idea that a team and the players that play for it are one big happy family. Hockey is still a business, at the end of the day, and young players get the short end of the stick for hand-wavy intangible reasons that are frankly kinda dumb. You see the extreme end of this in the NFL, with non-guaranteed contracts and running backs that last, like, a few years before injuries and concussions ruin their careers. NFL players have to make as much money as they can with the short playing window that they have. Hockey players frankly should be doing the same thing, because who knows how long their window of opportunity will last to make it big in the NHL.
On top of that, the pandemic has really made it plainly obvious that sports leagues and sports team owners have a severe disdain for anything that is not making money, up to and including the health and safety of their players. Again, you see the extreme end of this in the NFL, where, last season, an entire fifth (as in, 20%) of the league's players wound up on the COVID-19 injury reserve list. Sports teams very much see their players as commodities as opposed to human beings, and, as much as hockey fans might not like to think it, this extends to the NHL, too. Frankly, I think this means that, conversely, players should have a more detached view of their attachment to a team, as well.
$6.1M is a lot of money, and definitely more than the 2-year, $2.5M AAV contract that had supposedly been extended to Kotkaniemi, per Elliotte Friedman; on top of that, Friedman said on the 31 Thoughts podcast that he's fairly certain that the Hurricanes have already discussed what a long-term contract would look like with Kotkaniemi and his agent, making it look like they've done their due diligence. Arpon Basu's reporting in The Athletic also seems to imply that Kotkaniemi, at one point, thought he would be getting a long-term extension from the Habs, but that that thinking changed. This sorta leads into my second point:

2) I think the relationship between Kotkaniemi and the Habs really badly deteriorated, but that it wasn't just on Kotkaniemi's end, and he thinks the Habs have done him dirty in some number of ways. I think Basu's reporting sums up this situation far better than I can, so I'll just drop a couple of quotes from the article he wrote about it:

Quote:
Last season, Kotkaniemi struggled to find consistency, but it should be noted he didn’t benefit from any consistency either in terms of linemates or role. He was 20, remember, and while some would argue the onus was on him to make the best of his situation – it’s a fair argument – it could just as easily be argued the Canadiens did not put him in a situation to succeed.

Then the playoffs began and Kotkaniemi was a healthy scratch. When they ended roughly six weeks later in the Stanley Cup Final, Kotkaniemi was again a healthy scratch. He played a bunch of games in between, 19 to be precise, and produced eight points. He didn’t exactly set the world on fire, but he also turned 21 the day before the Canadiens lost in the Final with him watching from the stands in Tampa.

And then, once the playoffs were over, Kotkaniemi heard his general manager say this: “If I don’t have a choice, if I don’t see there’s a fit, then I’m going to have to rely and hope that KK gets the job done. That’s just the reality of being a GM in the National Hockey League. Sometimes, you can’t fill those spots, you have to be careful, and if it’s not there, you hope the young player’s going to take the next step. I don’t know that for sure, but that might have to be the case with KK.”

Quote:
The Hurricanes’ motives here are not purely hockey-related, but when they made that offer to Kotkaniemi, they showed more belief in him than the Canadiens had shown in nearly two years. His own GM told the world that the worst-case scenario for his team would be to settle on having Kotkaniemi be its second-line centre this season. So for those who were offended by the fact Kotkaniemi agreed to a contract that was so obviously an attempt to troll the Canadiens – with a base salary of $6,100,015 and a signing bonus of $20 as a way of getting both Kotkaniemi’s and Aho’s jersey numbers in the offer – perhaps Kotkaniemi was in a headspace where trolling the Canadiens was not all that disagreeable to him.


As an aside (and this is more of a point 2a), I'm not particularly willing to extend any goodwill to Marc Bergevin in consideration of this situation, considering how recent events have played out and how he's handled them.
A_Habs_fan et Kotkaniemi15 a aimé ceci.
 
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