In a matter of since he's Top 50 Defenseman prospect sure, but Top 50 Overall Prospect I'm not sure you can really say that. In 105 NHL minutes he really stood out as being the offensive guy you said he was with a Goals+|-/60 -0.123, xG+|- of -0.19 Corsi +|- was a -3.72 GF/60 -0.039 GA/60 0.084 (which isn't terrible) xGF/60 -0.115, xGA/60 0.075. CF/60 -2.7 CA/60 1.02.

Mikkola beat him in most of those statlines. With less minutes meaning 67 Minutes.

When have I said he’s the next Hedman? I even said any Leaf fan thinking he’s a top pairing guy should be a red flag. Just because I think he’s a good prospect and mentioned I’m not alone here’s X, Y, and Z sources that agree with me is support since you literally said ‘LMFAO’ about my statement.

I never once mentioned Liljegren being a systematic fit (you keep mentioning this). Again, my initial statement was about you think he was a bust nothing else. I then questioned your rationale because you said he was 20 years old and then only had bottom pairing upside while your own prospects a few years old could somehow blossom into top 4 guys. Seems a bit hypocritical doesn’t it? Some teams like to stack their AHL team and let a player develop in their deficiencies so no I don’t really think it’s a red flag for a defensemen to be 20-21 years old in the AHL. I think it has done wonders for Liljegren and he’s miles better defensively from a year or two ago. So much that he is/was on PK and his positioning is much better from my viewings. I see him having all the tools to be a second pairing guy if everything clicks for him.

I watch a little NCAA, last year I caught Perunovich when he played Wisconsin twice. He’s a good prospect (never said otherwise) and I have him ranked pretty high and he’s really the only one you mentioned that I could realistically hear an argument for having more value.

I’m also not saying you can’t have an opinion about a prospect that isn’t the norm but when you say “LMFAO” when I question it like 99% of the hockey community agrees with you is a little off pudding.

why does everyone put thorton at 3C, do people really expect him to play 12-15 min per game (i know he wont play all 82) at 41 years old

That's all of the top statements is he's the next big thing.

I would chalk that poll up to the sheer number of Leafs' fans. Most people voting have watched about 0.0000001% of prospects play. Mikkola and Walman really can't ever be considered busts because they were never highly ranked at draft age. It is too early to call Lilly a bust, but as he was someone who was ranked as high #2 at the start of his draft year, and was drafted in the first round, he may end up there.




I wouldn't really call Liljegren an offensive style D (despite his high numbers this season in the AHL, I don't see him ever being used in an overly offensive role in the NHL as he doesn't seem to make plays fast enough in the offensive zone) or someone who is wasting time on defense. Lilly is very strong in transition - sometimes completely unreal, and decent defensively but not overly big or strong. Don't get me wrong, Toronto fans have been ridiculous about Lilly for years and even as they have slowly downgraded their hopes they continue to push a narrative, and I have received no end of abuse from other Leafs' fans for saying that he was likely going end up being no more than a 3rd pairing D after having watched him extensively during his first and second season with the Marlies (which didn't really bother me as I also took abuse over disputing the hype for Bracco and Nielsen etc.)



That isn't true. On Pronman's list of top 124 prospects from September 2019 Lilly didn't make the list (Sandin was 33rd). In his September 2020 organizational ranking for Toronto he gave Lilly a "Legit NHL player" ranking which generally means a future bottom pairing D (with a possible, but unlikely, upside of a #4). Mikkola got the same ranking. Perunovich got a ranking of "Very Good NHL player" which generally means a future second pairing D. Sandin was given a ranking of "high end/very good bubble" which generally means a future low-end top pairing or high-end 2nd pairing D. Wheeler, Mirtle and Kloke all also now see Lilly as most likely a future 3rd pairing D.

I never once called either Mikkola or Walman busts but merely pointed the hypocrisy in a posters point that someone 20-21 couldn’t improve but a 24 is a likely bet to improve. Calling Liljegren a bust is premature which is why I brought it up and even said his upside is probably second pair which means he most likely is third pairing. So yeah we agree. I merely pointed to that poll to prove to that poster that I wasn’t in the minority of that thinking. I’m going based on a comment from a coworker that in Pronman’s June rankings he (Liljegren) was in there decently ranked as I personally am not a huge fan of the Athletic platform and see a recency bias and stylistic bias in Pronman’s rankings. Do I believe Liljegren’s ranking was inflated a little based on the sheer number of Leaf fans, sure. I’d also say it’s minor as we didn’t see Robertson top 5-10. Same could be said about any rankings, for instance when I mention Pronman he typically favors fast skating skill guys. The rankings you mention of his are also after Liljegren played PP2 instead of PP1 so production will drop and Pronman will weigh that as he only has so much time to watch guys. I think it speaks volumes when “offensive” guys are given PK duties which Keefe did for Liljegren. Trust me I don’t want to showcase him as a prospect but rather say he isn’t a bust because reasons a, b, c.

I don't particularly look into Pronman's articles, I more pay attention to NHL Insiders, not Athletic Insiders. Liljegren with being as high up, and in the draft they were talking about him being a top pairing. As far as I can see it, that hasn't even been close to the case, and it's considered a bust. Maybe you can get something out of him, but it doesn't seem like he's making a huge jump in skill it's small little adjustments and at this age. 21, if he was what they said he was supposed to be he would already be in the league as at least a scratch player. He would have been in the league most likely full time by 20. Now Sandin on the other hand is very very good, but when he can't get past Dermott or Ceci. Something has gone terribly wrong for Liljegren.

Mikkola, the only reason I feel he could be a Top 4 pairing (which not saying LIljegren can't I just don't think that's what he turns out being). Mikkola is a lot like Parayko didn't really get many opportunities in the AHL until some of the older guys who were moving around from team to team moved. Because if you don't remember Blues didn't have an affiliate for a year and had their players spread across the league. Then they got the team in San Antonio for a season, and ultimately he did decent, then he had last season he had really good improvement, and they put him on the NHL roster, and as far as we know the team liked him and he looked good on the ice. Only problem is Blues have 5 LHD on the roster at the time. Dunn, Gunnarsson, Scandella, Bouwmeester, and above him was also Faulk who they wanted to play at LHD last season, as on the RHD they had Pietrangelo, Parayko, and Bortuzzo. Injuries happened and they ended up putting him on the roster and he did well. Despite what you believe Gunnarsson was really productive when he was injury free, but he's not injury free. So scandella was the improvement, and same with Faulk. Now Faulk is absolute garbage 5v5 only really improves us on PP. But regardless of that he has a chance to get a Top 4 Pairing for us more than Liljegren would, but now he might be able to make the team because Bortz might be traded, but I don't think Lilj is better than Bortz if Lilj can't even get past Dermott but that's just in my opinion.

That’s fine, we have different definitions of bust & expectations for a 17th overall. I don’t think anyone in their right mind should expect a top pairing guy at that position. I think a somewhat realistic expectation is a second pairing guy which I think is Liljegren’s upside but he’s probably/realistically a good third pairing which isn’t a bust in my book. I really use the word bust when talking about top 5 guys not being top 6 forward/top 4 D or living up to their perceived draft slot. Bust would have to be a downright waste of a pick without using hindsight to justify someone else.

I use bust in terms of what they were when they originally were picked, and how far their value has dropped from that point if it doesn't drop tremendously then he's not a bust, but Liljegren his value in the eyes of everyone else besides toronto his value drops lower and lower it's tick tock time he's gotta do it now or it might never happen.

I don't think anyone believes that someone can't improve, but one the issues that I see all the time is that whenever a once highly rated prospects falters or has failed to develop as quickly as generally would be expected people will say that they are super young and then compare them favourably to some late developing players. There is really no evidential basis for this at all - the opposite. Most highly rated prospects either continue to develop quickly and get to the NHL at a fairly young age or they don't get there at all. Most full-time players who got the NHL later were not highly rated prospects, but were late bloomers. There are almost no players who were highly rated as young prospects and then came into the NHL as late bloomers. I don't know why that is, but it is.



It is premature to call him that, but it is not premature to say that he trending towards that. Part of the problem is going to be that a large swath of Leafs' fans announced that they had the steal of the draft on draft day. Continued to say that he would have gone #2 if it was not for mono and expected him to have a large impact quickly. If he ends up topping out as a third pairing D few are going to be thrilled, and while you have said that is about what you should expect at 17 OA, I disagree. You are drafting for potential. Freddie the Goat is looked at as one of the worst draft choices the Leafs' have ever made at 21OA because he was drafted as a someone the team felt was likely going to be their future 3C. At 25 years old he has played 168 NHL games and that is a lot more than many who were drafted just before or after him, so it isn't bad for where he was drafted, but you are supposed to be swinging for the fences with your first round pick while recognizing that about half of first round picks never make it.



Yes, but there were 4 Leafs' prospects in the top-44 despite the Leafs' being only 1 of 31 teams and not having a great prospect pool at the moment. Robertson and Sandin probably split the Leafs' vote at first and then Liljegren and Amirov split it later.

Not that I think that Pronman's lists are amazing, but I do consider them to be light-years ahead of any poll on hf. On Pronman's October 22nd 2020 list of "Top 155 players under 23-years" he listed the drafted players who he felt had the highest potential. This list, of course, included many players who are already in the NHL, but among D prospects who would qualify for that hf-poll Pronman lists 29 D and Lilly (ranked 40th on the HF poll and 15th among D) was not one of them. D that Pronman ranked in that top-155 list that LIlly did not make included Harley and York (both on the HF list, but below Lilly) as well as 13 other D who are not yet on the hf list: Bean, Hague, Merkley, Addison, Perunovich, Bahl, Zamula, Bjornfot, Mukhamadullin, Barron, Schneider, Samberg and Mitchell.



One of the things I find interesting, because I have watched many, many Marlies games over the last several years (both home games, road games, as well as games on AHL TV) is that there are defenses and excuses for Lilly that I never see with other prospects, and that simply don't match the reality on the ice. I love Lilly. Loved him before the draft. Love his story of growing with a single mother who sacrificed so much to help him try to make it. Love watching him play. I don't think I have ever watched a prospect who can nail the kinds of stretch passes he nails. But he struggled a lot in the AHL, and failed to make headway in making an NHL squad that was extremely weak on the right side and was especially in need of a D on the right who could get the puck of their own end with control. That should have been Lilly, but so far has not been. And during this time there was a complete disconnect between what I was seeing on the ice and what some were saying online. This kicked into overdrive after Sandin was drafted and immediately started putting up bigger offensive numbers (which wasn't expected as Lilly had been the draft pick who was supposed to the offensive driver and Sandin was more considered an all-around prospect with a much lower offensive ceiling when each was drafted. If didn't help that Lilly was a 17OA who many felt should have gone much earlier and Sandin was a 29OA who many felt could have been picked up later). So you had a fanbase that had built up Lilly as someone who should have, or could have, been drafted 2OA and many though was going to be a Karlsson type player and then a 29OA D who was a year younger comes in and blows away Lilly's numbers, and they needed to save face. So at first the claim was that Sandin had just had a couple lucky games, then they transformed Liljegren, in the minds of many Leafs' fans, into a defensive wonder - which clearly wasn't the case at all. Lilly was completely imploding when Keefe tried to put him up against top competition in the AHL at the time, although he did get things together in the month or so of the season.

The constant griping about Lilly's PP time is also one of those things - and it is generally nonsense. Lilly played plenty on PP1 in the AHL last year. First of all Sandin wasn't even playing for most of those games as he was either with the Leafs' or at the WJC, or in the weight room or otherwise working with trainers. For instance, during the stretch from November 3rd to the 22nd despite both of them being with the Marlies they only both suited up to play in the same game once. There were other games where they both played and Sandin was not on the PP at all as he was concentrating on other things that the team wanted him to work on. Lilly was on the PP1 more often than not last year. (He was also on the PP1 from day one of his rookie season, even though he probably should not have been, and started his second season on the PP1 but then played himself completely off the PP for a while before returning to the PP2 later in the season - for instance during the 2018/19 season Bracco only had 1 PP point in his first 15 games or so, playing with Lilly, but then started his torrential PP run as soon as Sandin was put with him).

The appearances on the PK have also been overblown. Yes, Lilly, who has improved a lot defensively, played a lot of PK1 last season but it was his third season in the AHL - that should be expected. Sandin also played big PK minutes last season and he is not good defensively at this point.

The Leafs wasted a season by trading Kadri

Kostin is a winger, dude.

But he is a Center, he's traditionally a Center which is where he normally plays team just moved him over to play Right Wing because that's where they lack. You should check out his WJC, and his AHL days, You would understand what I mean.

He played some C for Russia because they are painfully short on centers. And he was a winger with San Antonio. The kid plays winger because he plays like a full-on winger. Besides, we already have plenty of C prospects to come in behind Thomas, who's still a baby himself.

Going into the draft he was listed as Center. he wants to play center at times, which in KHL he's doing that too. I understand he's right wing by all means put him there, but you also have to understand some of the Center depth is gonna be missing when Bozak, and Barby go out the window. Sunny will fill in sure, but you need someone else to fill in.

Heh. Have you seen his stats for the current KHL season? If he's playing center, he's certainly not playing it well. I have access to watch all KHL games for free, so maybe I'll check out his team's next one.

Kostin is NOT going to be filling in as a checking line center. That's not his position, not his game. I'm quite sure we can find an affordable checking center if it's absolutely necessary (not sure why you think Barby is going out the window, but okay).

I personally don't want him to, but he certainly holds a market for a trade.