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Tom Wilson

Créé par: TheLeafsSeason
Équipe: 2020-21 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 6 déc. 2020
Publié: 6 déc. 2020
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  1. Dermott, Travis
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6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 39
#51
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Quoting: pharrow
welcome to the world of fake news and "inside sources"


what's that old saying? A source is worth the person reporting it. was this Bob Mackenzie or Steve Simmonds? It's almost like it matters.
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 41
#52
Banni
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
1- Lol that the caps dont have skill
2- i never said he didnt sway games or that his attributes did nothing, i said that if they did, they would show up in the stats
3-the fact that you think they exists, means they DO show up in the stats
4-the stats still show that Nylander brings more because his stats are better
5-A player can be good, spark fire do the physical stuff and all that and STILL not be as good as William Nylander, crazy i know
6- You're the one talking about goals and box scores, if you re-read my post you'll see i mentioned shots and chances against, something YOU said that Wilson generated because he went out and smashed some dudes. So is he firing his team up to go and get the offensive chances or is he not?


Like I said, you have to watch games. You aren't going to capture what he does in stats. It's not an every game thing. If he does that every game the whole league cries and he gets suspended.
It's a when it matters thing.

So no, you can't put that in stats. It's not measurable in that way. Period.
And none of this was ever about being a "better player" That was never what I said.
Your direct quote was

Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Lol, Tom Wilson is worse at everything than Nylander except punching and getting suspended. Leafs wouldnt even do this straight up


which is pure BS. Thank you very much.
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6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 42
#53
Zach
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People calling Nylander a floater really do not watch the Leafs. He is not a physical player, he will not go out on the ice and see red like Wilson does. Tom is a great player and what he does is important to teams, but he is not valuable when he is in the press box watching games instead of playing. Willy is top 5 in goals around the net, that means he is in the thick of things, right in front of the net. Which is not an easy place to score in when you have big guys cross checking you and shoving you out of the way. 100 times out of 100 I would take a 30+ goal scorer for under 7 mill than a guy who never reached 25 goals and is in the box for 150 minutes making over 5 million. I prefer my players to be on the ice
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 47
#54
Banni
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Quoting: ZachArmel
People calling Nylander a floater really do not watch the Leafs. He is not a physical player, he will not go out on the ice and see red like Wilson does. Tom is a great player and what he does is important to teams, but he is not valuable when he is in the press box watching games instead of playing. Willy is top 5 in goals around the net, that means he is in the thick of things, right in front of the net. Which is not an easy place to score in when you have big guys cross checking you and shoving you out of the way. 100 times out of 100 I would take a 30+ goal scorer for under 7 mill than a guy who never reached 25 goals and is in the box for 150 minutes making over 5 million. I prefer my players to be on the ice


one could also argue WIlson has single handedly won WSH playoff series. Like when he sent Wennberg out with a concussion and CBJ fell apart after. Also basically wrecked his career hurting the whole franchise as he's never been the same.
But you know, he got a few minutes penalty. Seems fair.
One thing about Wilson that is true that will never be true about Nylander. No one is changing their game for Nylander. No one. But everyone instantly puts their head on a swivel and moves that puck a little faster and gets some shorter arms and legs when wilson is on the ice. You can deny that effect all day. But we all know it's real.
I'm not saying Wilson is a better player than Nylander here. Or that Nylander is a better player than Wilson. All I'm saying here is you really under value what Wilson brings to the ice.
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6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 48
#55
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Quoting: pharrow
Like I said, you have to watch games. You aren't going to capture what he does in stats. It's not an every game thing. If he does that every game the whole league cries and he gets suspended.
It's a when it matters thing.

So no, you can't put that in stats. It's not measurable in that way. Period.
And none of this was ever about being a "better player" That was never what I said.
Your direct quote was



which is pure BS. Thank you very much.


I watch games too, and yes, the things you claim wilson does well do show up in stats, just because they dont produce the results you see doesnt mean the stats are lying. They sure match what I see.

And Nylander is better at everything except the things i mentioned. He scores goals better, he's a better play maker, he's better defensively, he's a better transition player, he's better at puck recovery.
Wilson can punch and smash better and he's much much better at getting suspended.
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 50
#56
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Quoting: pharrow
one could also argue WIlson has single handedly won WSH playoff series. Like when he sent Wennberg out with a concussion and CBJ fell apart after. Also basically wrecked his career hurting the whole franchise as he's never been the same.
But you know, he got a few minutes penalty. Seems fair.
One thing about Wilson that is true that will never be true about Nylander. No one is changing their game for Nylander. No one. But everyone instantly puts their head on a swivel and moves that puck a little faster and gets some shorter arms and legs when wilson is on the ice. You can deny that effect all day. But we all know it's real.
I'm not saying Wilson is a better player than Nylander here. Or that WIlson is a better player than Nylander. All I'm saying here is you really under value what Wilson brings to the ice.


or you could argue that Wilson severly damaged a players career and Washington won in spite of his horse crap. If the Caps had lost that game (like teams do more than half the time after incidents like these) then people would have wanted to run wilson out of town the way they did Kadri. Wilson was lucky he was on such a skilled and deep team that could over come his violent childish crap
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 52
#57
Go leafs go
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Quoting: TheLeafsSeason
One NHL reporter came out stating how NHL GM's don't understand the hype on Nylander and think he's nothing special, making a trade involving Nylander impossible since Dubas is overvaluing him.


I think a GM knows more than “one reporter”. Dubas’ opinion should be more respected.
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 53
#58
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
I watch games too, and yes, the things you claim wilson does well do show up in stats, just because they dont produce the results you see doesnt mean the stats are lying. They sure match what I see.

And Nylander is better at everything except the things i mentioned. He scores goals better, he's a better play maker, he's better defensively, he's a better transition player, he's better at puck recovery.
Wilson can punch and smash better and he's much much better at getting suspended.


you'll undervalue his game till you have to play WSH in the playoffs.
Of course you have to get out of the second round usually for that to happen.
But when he crushes your guy, changes the whole momentum of the game, all your players are looking over their shoulders, and your good player is out the series, you'll change your mind on that.
Just ask Columbus.
He'll do what ever it takes to win, and he'll infuse that into a team and they will follow. There ain't a single leafs player who can do that. And it shows.
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6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 53
#59
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Quoting: pharrow
one could also argue WIlson has single handedly won WSH playoff series. Like when he sent Wennberg out with a concussion and CBJ fell apart after. Also basically wrecked his career hurting the whole franchise as he's never been the same.
But you know, he got a few minutes penalty. Seems fair.
One thing about Wilson that is true that will never be true about Nylander. No one is changing their game for Nylander. No one. But everyone instantly puts their head on a swivel and moves that puck a little faster and gets some shorter arms and legs when wilson is on the ice. You can deny that effect all day. But we all know it's real.
I'm not saying Wilson is a better player than Nylander here. Or that Nylander is a better player than Wilson. All I'm saying here is you really under value what Wilson brings to the ice.


I understand his value, no denying that big hits can change the outcome of a game and hype up a team. A lot of teams, like they did with Kadri, know Wilson has a boiling point and will try to piss him off to get him penalties or suspensions. Teams do have to change their gameplan for Willy because he has one of the best wristers in the game, he is a pure goal scorer who can pass the puck as well. He has more value to a team than Wilson does because he can score and pass way better. Sure Wilson can hit, but he doesn't have the same skill. In fact he is nowhere close to that skill level of Nylander. I am taking Nylander all day because the way to win games is through putting the puck in the back of the net, not taking off a guys head
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 54
#60
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
or you could argue that Wilson severly damaged a players career and Washington won in spite of his horse crap. If the Caps had lost that game (like teams do more than half the time after incidents like these) then people would have wanted to run wilson out of town the way they did Kadri. Wilson was lucky he was on such a skilled and deep team that could over come his violent childish crap


WSH loses that series if Wennberg isn't knocked out, #Facts.
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 54
#61
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Quoting: pharrow
you'll undervalue his game till you have to play WSH in the playoffs.
Of course you have to get out of the second round usually for that to happen.
But when he crushes your guy, changes the whole momentum of the game, all your players are looking over their shoulders, and your good player is out the series, you'll change your mind on that.
Just ask Columbus.
He'll do what ever it takes to win, and he'll infuse that into a team and they will follow. There ain't a single leafs player who can do that. And it shows.


I love how you keep saying im undervaluing his game when the worst thing ive said about his game is that it's not as good or valuable as Nylanders. Something you agreed to.
Fun fact, the caps would have won without Wilson because they were a very good team, Wilson is a secondary piece on his best day
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 57
#62
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Quoting: pharrow
you'll undervalue his game till you have to play WSH in the playoffs.
Of course you have to get out of the second round usually for that to happen.
But when he crushes your guy, changes the whole momentum of the game, all your players are looking over their shoulders, and your good player is out the series, you'll change your mind on that.
Just ask Columbus.
He'll do what ever it takes to win, and he'll infuse that into a team and they will follow. There ain't a single leafs player who can do that. And it shows.


Do you mean that blindside hit that deserved to be suspendable? Where he purposely took out one of the other teams better players? Ya that is who I want on a team. Should've been kicked out for a few games there, if it was Kadri, it would have been a 5 gamer.

Also; this is what Tom said after the game with that hit: “I’m just trying to finish my check there,” Wilson said, via the Washington Post. “I’m obviously not trying to take a penalty. That cost us the game. That’s a critical moment. I’ve got to be better and maybe pass up on that hit. We’ve got the lead there so maybe a big hit is not needed. It’s playoffs. Trying to finish your checks, and unfortunately I took a penalty. They capitalized on a couple of their opportunities there in the third period.”
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 58
#63
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Quoting: pharrow
one could also argue WIlson has single handedly won WSH playoff series. Like when he sent Wennberg out with a concussion and CBJ fell apart after. Also basically wrecked his career hurting the whole franchise as he's never been the same.


This isn't something that should be praised or celebrated.

Washington hasn't gotten out of the first round since their cup win. Does Wilson's heart and grit apply to those series too where they get beat by worse teams? Or was it because he didn't give someone a brain injury?
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 58
#64
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Quoting: ZachArmel
I understand his value, no denying that big hits can change the outcome of a game and hype up a team. A lot of teams, like they did with Kadri, know Wilson has a boiling point and will try to piss him off to get him penalties or suspensions. Teams do have to change their gameplan for Willy because he has one of the best wristers in the game, he is a pure goal scorer who can pass the puck as well. He has more value to a team than Wilson does because he can score and pass way better. Sure Wilson can hit, but he doesn't have the same skill. In fact he is nowhere close to that skill level of Nylander. I am taking Nylander all day because the way to win games is through putting the puck in the back of the net, not taking off a guys head


The same Kadri every TOR fan who is honest about it regrets moving?
Yeah Wilson has taken dumb penalties before, but he's much smarter about his game now.
This simply isn't worth arguing. You'll figure it out if you ever meet him in the playoffs. He'll crush a key cog in your teams wheel and then you'll be pissed and crying about it.
I love to hate wilson, he is no doubt a dirty player, but he's one every team would love to have.
You seriously under rate his game. He's not Lucic or Reaves, he can actually play hockey.
6 déc. 2020 à 16 h 59
#65
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
or you could argue that Wilson severly damaged a players career and Washington won in spite of his horse crap. If the Caps had lost that game (like teams do more than half the time after incidents like these) then people would have wanted to run wilson out of town the way they did Kadri. Wilson was lucky he was on such a skilled and deep team that could over come his violent childish crap


They lost that game because of his penalty, only reason they won the series was because Wilson knocked out Wennberg
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6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 1
#66
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Quoting: pharrow
WSH loses that series if Wennberg isn't knocked out, #Facts.


the capitals were winning that game with less than a period to go and tied it on the ensuing power play, the blue jackets then won that game in OT, then the next game. WIlson's crap put them behind the 8 ball and down in the series. The Capitals then won the next 2 games without Wilson's influence (because he was suspended) to tie the series at 2 games and then lost the first game he was back.
Wilson was held pointless and was a non-factor for the two remaining games.
It's easier to think of Washington sweeping that series than losing it without Wilson
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 1
#67
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Quoting: mondo
This isn't something that should be praised or celebrated.

Washington hasn't gotten out of the first round since their cup win. Does Wilson's heart and grit apply to those series too where they get beat by worse teams? Or was it because he didn't give someone a brain injury?


he sure isn't the reason they lost.
It's ok I get it. People love to hate the guy. I hate him to. But I'm not blind to what he brings.
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 3
#68
Démarrer sujet
Banni
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Quoting: pharrow
you'll undervalue his game till you have to play WSH in the playoffs.
Of course you have to get out of the second round usually for that to happen.
But when he crushes your guy, changes the whole momentum of the game, all your players are looking over their shoulders, and your good player is out the series, you'll change your mind on that.
Just ask Columbus.
He'll do what ever it takes to win, and he'll infuse that into a team and they will follow. There ain't a single leafs player who can do that. And it shows.


I agree, but I wouldn't take Muzzin out of the picture.
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 3
#69
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Quoting: ZachArmel
They lost that game because of his penalty, only reason they won the series was because Wilson knocked out Wennberg


Nah, the Capitals would have rolled over the Blue jackets without that hit. It sparked them more than it did washington, the caps would have won in 5 games at most
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 3
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
are you like 65 years old what, fashion shows with nylander?

Nylander is an elite playmaking winger who's got a deadly wrist shot. He has more career goals and points than wilson does in 215 less games.

Wilson is a bruiser who is a career minus in the playoffs who prior to the cup win was completely invisible and useless for offence.

d1bbeeece9cbd90d1511bdc1ce8b3d57.png

Since he's got his cup his "playoff clutchness" hasn't gotten his team out of the first round

Wilson's a solid player, and I'd love him on the team, but he's overpaid as hell and is way less useful than an elite winger like nylander


Yup of course Nylander has more career goals and points than Wilson in many less games, that's not Wilson's primary role. It's just like saying, Wilson has 20x more hits than Nylander in his career (a true stat), so he's better. That stat is also true, but that's not Nylander's game. (And btw I'm not even saying anything close to that Wilson is a more valuable or better player)

"Wilson is a career minus in the playoffs" he's -1 don't act like he's -30

I love that you purposely cut out his recent playoffs in that image to make it seem like he hasn't improved from when he was 20-23 years old and just playing a 4th line role lol.

Overpaid? Really? If anything underpaid, on pace for 25 goals and 53 points (over a full season in 19-20) while being such a unique and physical player in the league.

I'm not agreeing with the trade or anything, but don't exaggerate or willfully ignore particular details to make your point seem more logical, because it's so glaringly obvious for those that are informed enough to see through that bull****.
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6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 4
#71
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Quoting: TheLeafsSeason
I agree with what you said, but there is Muzzin, Hyman, and Bogosian. Other than those three, the Leafs have no one else who plays a physical game.


it's almost like you've never watched a leaf game before
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 4
#72
Zach
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Quoting: pharrow
The same Kadri every TOR fan who is honest about it regrets moving?
Yeah Wilson has taken dumb penalties before, but he's much smarter about his game now.
This simply isn't worth arguing. You'll figure it out if you ever meet him in the playoffs. He'll crush a key cog in your teams wheel and then you'll be pissed and crying about it.
I love to hate wilson, he is no doubt a dirty player, but he's one every team would love to have.
You seriously under rate his game. He's not Lucic or Reaves, he can actually play hockey.


The Kadri trade in hindsight is dumb, but at the time it made sense. Trading a 3C who has been suspended in b2b playoff series against Boston for a top 4 RD and a cheaper 3C. It didn't work out as planned but his suspensions were a key reason they lost. I am not afraid of Tom Wilson because our skilled guys are able to be evasive to checks, like they did when they played Washington a few years ago...
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 6
#73
Zach
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Nah, the Capitals would have rolled over the Blue jackets without that hit. It sparked them more than it did washington, the caps would have won in 5 games at most


They really would not have.
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 6
#74
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Quoting: pharrow
he sure isn't the reason they lost.
It's ok I get it. People love to hate the guy. I hate him to. But I'm not blind to what he brings.


literally no one is arguing that tom wilson is bad. The entire point is that he is not as good or valuable as Nylander and the Leafs would not do the trade.
6 déc. 2020 à 17 h 7
#75
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Quoting: theBeer_Leaguer
Yup of course Nylander has more career goals and points than Wilson in many less games, that's not Wilson's primary role. It's just like saying, Wilson has 20x more hits than Nylander in his career (a true stat), so he's better. That stat is also true, but that's not Nylander's game. (And btw I'm not even saying anything close to that Wilson is a more valuable or better player)

"Wilson is a career minus in the playoffs" he's -1 don't act like he's -30

I love that you purposely cut out his recent playoffs in that image to make it seem like he hasn't improved from when he was 20-23 years old and just playing a 4th line role lol.

Overpaid? Really? If anything underpaid, on pace for 25 goals and 53 points (over a full season in 19-20) while being such a unique and physical player in the league.

I'm not agreeing with the trade or anything, but don't exaggerate or willfully ignore particular details to make your point seem more logical, because it's so glaringly obvious for those that are informed enough to see through that bull****.


I was pointing out that until he was a super duper clutch playoff guy, he was garbage. He's been decent since winning the cup, but not a gamechanger evidently, since his team can't win a round

I wouldn't dare pin that on a single player, but apparently nylander gets the flak so does that mean it's wilson's fault his team can't win a round since their cup?

To reiterate, I love wilson, but goals, offence, puck possession, and high hockey IQ win games. Nylander is better at that. He's SO much better, he's elite, goals follow him whereever he goes.

Hits and intangibles are fantastic too, but like - goals are more important lol. We can sign simmonds, martin, thornton, bogosian etc. and get that stuff. Wilson is valuable because he's a grinder who pops in 20 goals from time to time and he's not terrible offensively.

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even in the uber intense playoffs, it appears nylander is better, since he signed his deal lol
 
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