Forums/Armchair-GM

Hertl is NOT Elite

Créé par: GMs
Date de création initiale: nov 20, 2020
Publié: 20 nov 2020 à 19 h 04
Équipe: 2020-21 Sharks de San Jose
Explications
Hertl is in is prime, 27 yo 2 years remaining before he gets the big payday and that contract won’t probably age well. Hertl have 1 season over 50 points and he is now 27 yo, is he a 1C ? Yes, but he isn’t Elite. Domi did 72 points with MTL and no one ever considered him a 1C and not even close. I know Hertl is better than Domi, but if Domi is a 2C than Hertl is a 1C but not Elite

Thanks !
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 08
#1
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Definitely not elite. He's better suited as a high end 2C imo
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 09
#2
Isles7
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 12
#3
Démarrer sujet
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Quoting: Isles777




That doesn't made him an Elite player
I saw something comparable about Paul Byron and is Market Value should be around 6M if I'm not mistaking, but he's still a bottom six player
Hertl is very good, just not Elite like Eichel Matthews McJesus MacKinnon Barkov etc
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 21
#4
Isles7
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Quoting: GMs
That doesn't made him an Elite player
I saw something comparable about Paul Byron and is Market Value should be around 6M if I'm not mistaking, but he's still a bottom six player
Hertl is very good, just not Elite like Eichel Matthews McJesus MacKinnon Barkov etc


What more does he have to do to be considered an elite C?
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 23
#5
bhavikp27
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He was last year but right now, I would say he's a great two-way top6 player. If he's elite this year, then he's definitely among the elite.
" 1 season over 50 points " you can't ignore his past season because he was injured; 62 pts/82 GP pace. He is also among the best for couple years now in xGF/60 so considering points only isn't the best way to do it imo.

Hertl has been great (all-around) for several years; Domi just exploded for a year, he's a true definition of one season wonder. (and I know Habs fan that thought he was a 1C)
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 25
#6
bhavikp27
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Quoting: GMs
That doesn't made him an Elite player
I saw something comparable about Paul Byron and is Market Value should be around 6M if I'm not mistaking, but he's still a bottom six player
Hertl is very good, just not Elite like Eichel Matthews McJesus MacKinnon Barkov etc


McDavid (and then MacKinnon) are on different levels. Sure he isn't there. Barkov isn't as elite as people tend to think.

Quoting: Isles777
What more does he have to do to be considered an elite C?


" Because he doesn't score 80 pts "
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 27
#7
y i k e s
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Quoting: bhavikp27
He was last year but right now, I would say he's a great two-way top6 player. If he's elite this year, then he's definitely among the elite.
" 1 season over 50 points " you can't ignore his past season because he was injured; 62 pts/82 GP pace. He is also among the best for couple years now in xGF/60 so considering points only isn't the best way to do it imo.

Hertl has been great (all-around) for several years; Domi just exploded for a year, he's a true definition of one season wonder. (and I know Habs fan that thought he was a 1C)


Quoting: GMs
That doesn't made him an Elite player
I saw something comparable about Paul Byron and is Market Value should be around 6M if I'm not mistaking, but he's still a bottom six player
Hertl is very good, just not Elite like Eichel Matthews McJesus MacKinnon Barkov etc


Those players you listen aren’t elite lol. The first four are franchise players and barkov had a down year but is still a franchise type center ( think he’s better than elite but not on those guys levels). Elite is for players better than good/ worth it. Players above elite are players who are amongst the best in the entire league. Eichel mackinnon Mcdavid matthews Crosby Marchand hedman - those guys aren’t elite - they’re better. Elite is for someone like Hertl or rantanen. There’s obviously tiers like Barzal is better than rantanen but they’re both elite, but Barzal isn’t a franchise guy who leveled past that rank
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 34
#8
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Quoting: Isles777



R u JFresh 🤔
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 40
#9
Isles7
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Quoting: AndrewLadd
R u JFresh 🤔


Nah 😂 - he’s a good follow if you’re into analytics
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20 nov 2020 à 19 h 56
#10
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What do you guys rank higher? Superstar or Elite?
20 nov 2020 à 19 h 57
#11
bhavikp27
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
What do you guys rank higher? Superstar or Elite?


I would have superstar.
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 02
#12
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Quoting: Isles777
What more does he have to do to be considered an elite C?


Actually score at a PPG+ pace for more than one season lol. Hertl is far from elite. Not a chance
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 03
#13
Thank You GMJR
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Quoting: GMs
That doesn't made him an Elite player
I saw something comparable about Paul Byron and is Market Value should be around 6M if I'm not mistaking, but he's still a bottom six player
Hertl is very good, just not Elite like Eichel Matthews McJesus MacKinnon Barkov etc


Exactly lol. 100% agree with you. Anyone who actually watches hockey knows that hertl isn’t an elite forward. That doesn’t make him bad. He’s a great 2C, but he’s not carrying a teams offence to the cup.

People need to watch more hockey and less excel spreadsheets!
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 04
#14
Isles7
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Quoting: mhockey91
Actually score at a PPG+ pace for more than one season lol. Hertl is far from elite. Not a chance


Quoting: mhockey91
Actually score at a PPG+ pace for more than one season lol. Hertl is far from elite. Not a chance


😂 he’s better than a lot of players who put up more points than him.
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 04
#15
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Quoting: moli92
Definitely not elite. He's better suited as a high end 2C imo


Yup. Anyone who thinks he’s elite doesn’t watch hockey
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 05
#16
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Quoting: Isles777
😂 he’s better than a lot of players who put up more points than him.


Name them. Because I honestly can’t think of any players he’s better than; that actually are 1Cs.

Hertl is like a duchene tier player.
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 06
#17
Isles7
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Quoting: mhockey91
Exactly lol. 100% agree with you. Anyone who actually watches hockey knows that hertl isn’t an elite forward. That doesn’t make him bad. He’s a great 2C, but he’s not carrying a teams offence to the cup.

People need to watch more hockey and less excel spreadsheets!


That is such a flawed argument. Plenty of top teams in the NHL use analytics.
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 18
#18
Thank You GMJR
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Quoting: Isles777
That is such a flawed argument. Plenty of top teams in the NHL use analytics.


They all use analytics. I use them too! But people like you or DEYS3223 who solely rely on analytics for every one of their arguments are just wrong. These analytics aren’t flawless and need to be taken with a grain of salt. There is standard deviation in all of them. The best way to analyze players is a mix of watching, reading what actual reporters say, using analytics, and looking at production.

Only relying on one method just skews your judgment
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 19
#19
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Quoting: bhavikp27
I would have superstar.


ok then yeah I would say Hertl is borderline elite
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 23
#20
Isles7
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Quoting: mhockey91
Name them. Because I honestly can’t think of any players he’s better than; that actually are 1Cs.

Hertl is like a duchene tier player.


Kuznetsov , backstrom , toews, Dubois, hischier ,
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 25
#21
bhavikp27
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Quoting: mhockey91
They all use analytics. I use them too! But people like you or DEYS3223 who solely rely on analytics for every one of their arguments are just wrong. These analytics aren’t flawless and need to be taken with a grain of salt. There is standard deviation in all of them. The best way to analyze players is a mix of watching, reading what actual reporters say, using analytics, and looking at production.

Only relying on one method just skews your judgment


Agreed for most part. But not with actual reporters; at least 60-70% don't evaluate properly and can't back up their arguments.
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 29
#22
Isles7
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Quoting: mhockey91
They all use analytics. I use them too! But people like you or DEYS3223 who solely rely on analytics for every one of their arguments are just wrong. These analytics aren’t flawless and need to be taken with a grain of salt. There is standard deviation in all of them. The best way to analyze players is a mix of watching, reading what actual reporters say, using analytics, and looking at production.

Only relying on one method just skews your judgment



A casual fans eye test is a lot more flawed than analytics - so the “watch more hockey” argument holds no weight because I’d bet you don’t watch a game and focus on one player the entire time. You can’t remember every single thing that happened.
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20 nov 2020 à 20 h 35
#23
Thank You GMJR
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Quoting: Isles777
Kuznetsov , backstrom , toews, Dubois, hischier ,


All of those players are better than Hertl lol you’re joking right. Except hiesher but he doesn’t even out score him.

PLD is a freak who even though he hasn’t out scored hertl, he has all the tools to be an elite 1C. CBJ don’t have much forwards around him, but they are getting better. He turned it on in the playoffs and showed the world what he’s made of. Awful example

Backstrom: hasn’t scored at under a 70 point pace since 2011. Talk about consistency.

Kuzy: awful defensively sure, but from a pure offensive standpoint he’s highly skilled even though I don’t like him. Way more upside than hertl.

Toews: analytic community REALLY hates toews lol a first ballot HOFer and top 100 player of all time. Still ripped 35 goals the other year on Chicago. Toews went from one of the most overrated players in the NHL to one of the most underrated
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 37
#24
Thank You GMJR
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Quoting: Isles777
A casual fans eye test is a lot more flawed than analytics - so the “watch more hockey” argument holds no weight because I’d bet you don’t watch a game and focus on one player the entire time. You can’t remember every single thing that happened.


You can 100% notice a good player on the ice. Clearly you don’t have much hockey sense if you can’t differentiate between a good player and a bad player... production + eye test + sports writes + analytics is the only way to go.

There is a reason no team solely rellies on advanced stats. Not even TML with Dubas. There are so many other intangibles
20 nov 2020 à 20 h 39
#25
Isles7
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Quoting: mhockey91
All of those players are better than Hertl lol you’re joking right. Except hiesher but he doesn’t even out score him.

PLD is a freak who even though he hasn’t out scored hertl, he has all the tools to be an elite 1C. CBJ don’t have much forwards around him, but they are getting better. He turned it on in the playoffs and showed the world what he’s made of. Awful example

Backstrom: hasn’t scored at under a 70 point pace since 2011. Talk about consistency.

Kuzy: awful defensively sure, but from a pure offensive standpoint he’s highly skilled even though I don’t like him. Way more upside than hertl.

Toews: analytic community REALLY hates toews lol a first ballot HOFer and top 100 player of all time. Still ripped 35 goals the other year on Chicago. Toews went from one of the most overrated players in the NHL to one of the most underrated


It seems like you’re evaluating players based on your personal bias. Skill does not always equal impact. Some of those players have more skill than hertl, but hertl definitely has the better impact
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