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Hawks fans thoughts

Créé par: etpeck
Équipe: 2020-21 Hurricanes de la Caroline
Date de création initiale: 21 oct. 2020
Publié: 21 oct. 2020
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
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1.
CAR
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  5. Choix de 2e ronde en 2022 (CAR)
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CAR
ANA
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CAR
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    21 oct. 2020 à 20 h 26
    #1
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    I'd be surprised if Kane went to CAR and Necas wasn't part of the deal
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    21 oct. 2020 à 20 h 28
    #2
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    Quoting: villenash
    I'd be surprised if Kane went to CAR and Necas wasn't part of the deal


    Necas would be a total nostarter for the canes
    21 oct. 2020 à 20 h 56
    #3
    Big D's #1 Hawks fan
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    Quoting: etpeck
    Necas would be a total nostarter for the canes


    Kane sells Jerseys and Tickets, Necas doesn't. And there's a lot of Chicago transplants in NC, especially Raleigh. Also, I see a 2022 1st being included in the deal but the Hawks would probably throw in a 2022 2nd. Hawks management will want to say they got two 1st round pics for trading away the only Blackhawks 1st overall pick, one of the best American born players ever, and the revenue possibilities of decade old franchise scoring records being broken. The real question is will Kane waive his NMC clause to go to Raleigh? I've been to a game in Raleigh and I'm going to say that's a hard "no". Kane isn't married with kids yet and I don't see Raleigh offering what Kane is looking for other than the Canes are a good team and the fans in Carolina are legit. Hope this perspective helps.
    SociallyHawkward a aimé ceci.
    21 oct. 2020 à 21 h 5
    #4
    Chewbacca88
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    Not gonna happen. No where near enough for Patty Kane.
    21 oct. 2020 à 21 h 21
    #5
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    Necas+ but kane wouldn't waive his nmc. Also hawks have no interest in trading him.
    21 oct. 2020 à 21 h 30
    #6
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    Quoting: SociallyHawkward
    Necas+ but kane wouldn't waive his nmc. Also hawks have no interest in trading him.


    They have interest in trading them, or they wouldn’t announce a rebuild. At present, Kane and toews have no desire to leave. Plain and simple.
    21 oct. 2020 à 21 h 37
    #7
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    They have interest in trading them, or they wouldn’t announce a rebuild. At present, Kane and toews have no desire to leave. Plain and simple.


    Sorry bud but I disagree as we do quite often lately
    21 oct. 2020 à 21 h 43
    #8
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    Quoting: SociallyHawkward
    Sorry bud but I disagree as we do quite often lately


    I know you disagree. We’re just two different schools of thought. To me, there’s simply no logical reason to keep Kane and toews if they want to win and we are doing a rebuild the right way. If they want to stay, which clearly they do, that’s different. But as for teaching the younger players, it’s not like Kane and toews had any role models during their early years. Remember how young that 08-09 team was? Either way, this team isn’t close, and any hawks fan who thinks they are is not looking at the full picture. Everything stan wants this team to be is resting on the notion that EVERY prospect grows to their full potential, which, considering our prospect record since 2015, is a terrible sign. Mix that with the rumor that Colliton might get an extension, and this team is gonna be laughable for 4-5 years.
    21 oct. 2020 à 21 h 54
    #9
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    I know you disagree. We’re just two different schools of thought. To me, there’s simply no logical reason to keep Kane and toews if they want to win and we are doing a rebuild the right way. If they want to stay, which clearly they do, that’s different. But as for teaching the younger players, it’s not like Kane and toews had any role models during their early years. Remember how young that 08-09 team was? Either way, this team isn’t close, and any hawks fan who thinks they are is not looking at the full picture. Everything stan wants this team to be is resting on the notion that EVERY prospect grows to their full potential, which, considering our prospect record since 2015, is a terrible sign. Mix that with the rumor that Colliton might get an extension, and this team is gonna be laughable for 4-5 years.


    I'll agree with that. I don't think bowman's plan is going to work. I also don't think bowman had a plan until just yesterday when he announced the rebuild. I also agree colliton shouldn't be a NHL coach. Just cus his system worked once overseas doesn't make him a good coach. But where I disagree is keeping toews and kane. I'm sure you know where I stand by now. They should be on the team until their statues are standing outside the stadium.
    21 oct. 2020 à 22 h 26
    #10
    Hawks Fan
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    Does Bokk plan to come on over from Germany? Could be nice to have Bokk and Reichel over. Germany is proving to be a great place for talent.
    21 oct. 2020 à 23 h 30
    #11
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    Kane won't waive, but if he did we won't retain that much. And it starts at Necas+
    ChiHawk a aimé ceci.
    21 oct. 2020 à 23 h 47
    #12
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    I know you disagree. We’re just two different schools of thought. To me, there’s simply no logical reason to keep Kane and toews if they want to win and we are doing a rebuild the right way. If they want to stay, which clearly they do, that’s different. But as for teaching the younger players, it’s not like Kane and toews had any role models during their early years. Remember how young that 08-09 team was? Either way, this team isn’t close, and any hawks fan who thinks they are is not looking at the full picture. Everything stan wants this team to be is resting on the notion that EVERY prospect grows to their full potential, which, considering our prospect record since 2015, is a terrible sign. Mix that with the rumor that Colliton might get an extension, and this team is gonna be laughable for 4-5 years.


    Toews could possibly waive but Kane I highly doubt will ever. I get the Hawks having interest in trading Toews and Keith potentially though. I don't think they want to trade Kane though he's just got way too big of a following in Chicago not to mention he's extremely involved in the legacy players and such.
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    22 oct. 2020 à 1 h 5
    #13
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    Quoting: ChiHawk
    Toews could possibly waive but Kane I highly doubt will ever. I get the Hawks having interest in trading Toews and Keith potentially though. I don't think they want to trade Kane though he's just got way too big of a following in Chicago not to mention he's extremely involved in the legacy players and such.


    I agree with you on Kane, however, it is definitely applicable to toews too. Trading either or even both would take huge stones on the person doing it, no doubt. It really comes to business versus results. Do we wanna milk every last penny we can out of toews and Kane, or do we move on and do a rebuild the right, committed way?
    22 oct. 2020 à 2 h 17
    #14
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    I agree with you on Kane, however, it is definitely applicable to toews too. Trading either or even both would take huge stones on the person doing it, no doubt. It really comes to business versus results. Do we wanna milk every last penny we can out of toews and Kane, or do we move on and do a rebuild the right, committed way?


    I don't see the need to honestly, at least not yet and wait till the expansion draft as there is going to be a lot of moving parts. I'm not on board with the Hawks needing a full teardown and plenty okay with Toews as a 3C in a couple seasons for his last year on his agreement and Kane is top 6 for another 5 years. Keith I'm okay with moving on from but his return won't be great (2nd and a prospect) so it would be more about moving cap and gaining a roster space. Hawks are in desperate need for a #1 LHD prospect and a top 6 winger prospect. We should be able to get one covered in the next year draft. Maybe move Toews for the other piece; idk. It's not easy so say but full teardowns hardly ever work and can easily become a endless cycle also.
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    22 oct. 2020 à 11 h 18
    #15
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    Quoting: ChiHawk
    I don't see the need to honestly, at least not yet and wait till the expansion draft as there is going to be a lot of moving parts. I'm not on board with the Hawks needing a full teardown and plenty okay with Toews as a 3C in a couple seasons for his last year on his agreement and Kane is top 6 for another 5 years. Keith I'm okay with moving on from but his return won't be great (2nd and a prospect) so it would be more about moving cap and gaining a roster space. Hawks are in desperate need for a #1 LHD prospect and a top 6 winger prospect. We should be able to get one covered in the next year draft. Maybe move Toews for the other piece; idk. It's not easy so say but full teardowns hardly ever work and can easily become a endless cycle also.


    Al of what your saying makes complete sense. The only problem is, if this is the plan, don’t say we’re rebuilding, cuz that’s not what this is. It’s just more of the same with the added emphasis on youth getting more chances. Problem with that last part is that it is predicated on the notion that we grow nearly ALL of our prospects to full potential. As I’ve said before, given our track record with prospects in the last 5-6 years, we are not in good shape in the development department.

    All these things essentially make the statement on Tuesday a sheer waste of time and honestly made a lot of our jobs that much harder. A few of us and myself looked at it the statement as us being on notice and not stan.
    22 oct. 2020 à 14 h 21
    #16
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    Al of what your saying makes complete sense. The only problem is, if this is the plan, don’t say we’re rebuilding, cuz that’s not what this is. It’s just more of the same with the added emphasis on youth getting more chances. Problem with that last part is that it is predicated on the notion that we grow nearly ALL of our prospects to full potential. As I’ve said before, given our track record with prospects in the last 5-6 years, we are not in good shape in the development department.

    All these things essentially make the statement on Tuesday a sheer waste of time and honestly made a lot of our jobs that much harder. A few of us and myself looked at it the statement as us being on notice and not stan.


    A rebuild isn't black and white. What i mean, is a rebuild doesn't mean a teardown of all parts and starting anew. There are soft rebuilds and hard rebuilds as we've seen. Hard rebuilds rarely work....New York is the most recent one that MIGHT end up being successful. However there are plenty that have been an endless cycle. Bowman is not saying a full teardown hard rebuild and quite frankly I agree with that (despite not liking Bowman). As such, this does not involve moving the 2 biggest contracts on the team because they are still extremely productive players and show they can be for the remainder of their contracts and a such an valuable piece in a soft rebuild. Your next thought is going to be, so you're saying we will win a cup in 3 years? No, not saying that. What I'm saying is Kane and Toews are still extremely productive, will help build the young core and provide leadership, and hopefully re-sign (much lesser amounts) and be a part of a cup 4 run in 4 to 5 years.

    It doesn't mean growing "all" of our prospects to full potential but does mean guys like Dach, Mitchell, Boqvist, Debrincat, Kubalik, have to have a 80% hit rate of reaching their potential with the most important piece being Dach. In the next 2 years, contracts like De Haan, Shaw, Smith, Saad's retention, Carpenter, Maatta's retention will all be off the books and betting Keith waives and gets traded. Seattle expansion happens and there will also be changes there. So regarding Bowman's statement about having cap space to make a move or two to acquire a veteran to fill in a hole makes sense. Notably, we are likely going to require finding a #1LHD in a trade or free agency, but the others in a 3 to 5 year plan should largely be found organically through development, next year's and the year after draft, scouting and the current core so to that point, yes we will have to hit on 80% of prospects in the system today and we will need some cap flexibility in the next 2 years. This is what the soft rebuild means in my mind and there is inherent risk of course but IMO less calculated risk then doing a full teardown rebuild.

    Two nuggets also to think about. Most agree the Hawks are bottom feeders this coming season and will result in a lottery pick. A guy like Owen Power (especially), Luke Hughes or Carson Lambros could be huge for us and certainly ready in 4 more years (2 years of development at non NHL level and 2 years of development at the NHL level).

    The other nugget I'll share is, despite your lack of love for Dach, The Athletic posted an article this morning you probably read ranking the best NHL prospects and players under 23 Dach ranked 16 ( I personally think he should rank higher or Jack Hughes lower who was at #8). For reference, the guys ahead of Dach are A Matthews, Makar, Heiskanen, the Tkachucks, Q Hughes, Laine, LaFreniere, Dahlin. Pretty nice company to be in. After Dach notably; Perfetti (19), Zegras (23), Cozens (26), Debrincat (30), Byram (31), Drysdale (34), Rossi (50), Newhook (51), Boqvist (55), Zary (60), Turcotte (89)!!! Corey Pronman did the rankings and is one of the best as you know. So we have a very special play on our hands with Dach as widely known by the best analysts in the league and he reaching his potential is the biggest 'X' factor in making sure our soft rebuild is a success.
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    22 oct. 2020 à 15 h 3
    #17
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    Quoting: ChiHawk
    A rebuild isn't black and white. What i mean, is a rebuild doesn't mean a teardown of all parts and starting anew. There are soft rebuilds and hard rebuilds as we've seen. Hard rebuilds rarely work....New York is the most recent one that MIGHT end up being successful. However there are plenty that have been an endless cycle. Bowman is not saying a full teardown hard rebuild and quite frankly I agree with that (despite not liking Bowman). As such, this does not involve moving the 2 biggest contracts on the team because they are still extremely productive players and show they can be for the remainder of their contracts and a such an valuable piece in a soft rebuild. Your next thought is going to be, so you're saying we will win a cup in 3 years? No, not saying that. What I'm saying is Kane and Toews are still extremely productive, will help build the young core and provide leadership, and hopefully re-sign (much lesser amounts) and be a part of a cup 4 run in 4 to 5 years.

    It doesn't mean growing "all" of our prospects to full potential but does mean guys like Dach, Mitchell, Boqvist, Debrincat, Kubalik, have to have a 80% hit rate of reaching their potential with the most important piece being Dach. In the next 2 years, contracts like De Haan, Shaw, Smith, Saad's retention, Carpenter, Maatta's retention will all be off the books and betting Keith waives and gets traded. Seattle expansion happens and there will also be changes there. So regarding Bowman's statement about having cap space to make a move or two to acquire a veteran to fill in a hole makes sense. Notably, we are likely going to require finding a #1LHD in a trade or free agency, but the others in a 3 to 5 year plan should largely be found organically through development, next year's and the year after draft, scouting and the current core so to that point, yes we will have to hit on 80% of prospects in the system today and we will need some cap flexibility in the next 2 years. This is what the soft rebuild means in my mind and there is inherent risk of course but IMO less calculated risk then doing a full teardown rebuild.

    Two nuggets also to think about. Most agree the Hawks are bottom feeders this coming season and will result in a lottery pick. A guy like Owen Power (especially), Luke Hughes or Carson Lambros could be huge for us and certainly ready in 4 more years (2 years of development at non NHL level and 2 years of development at the NHL level).

    The other nugget I'll share is, despite your lack of love for Dach, The Athletic posted an article this morning you probably read ranking the best NHL prospects and players under 23 Dach ranked 16 ( I personally think he should rank higher or Jack Hughes lower who was at #8). For reference, the guys ahead of Dach are A Matthews, Makar, Heiskanen, the Tkachucks, Q Hughes, Laine, LaFreniere, Dahlin. Pretty nice company to be in. After Dach notably; Perfetti (19), Zegras (23), Cozens (26), Debrincat (30), Byram (31), Drysdale (34), Rossi (50), Newhook (51), Boqvist (55), Zary (60), Turcotte (89)!!! Corey Pronman did the rankings and is one of the best as you know. So we have a very special play on our hands with Dach as widely known by the best analysts in the league and he reaching his potential is the biggest 'X' factor in making sure our soft rebuild is a success.


    Like I said, I completely get what your saying and respect it. It’s an optimistic view. We are just having one of our “ends of the spectrum” debates is all.

    No matter what happens in the next three years, there’s simply nothing this team has done in the last 5-6 years to suggest they can grow the prospects properly. I’m not gonna talk about cup runs. I’m not even thinking of the possibility of a cup for another decade honestly. Never mind 4-5 years from now cuz there’s nothing suggesting that’s possible. Optimistically, sure, it’s possible, but my job requires me to be a realist. I’m fine with keeping toews and Kane, so long as an actual rebuild happens, cuz I’ve seen this smokescreen before. Not to mention, what happens when Colliton gets an extension? There goes your rebuild dead on arrival.

    The problem I have with a passive, soft rebuild is that it requires way too many things to go right as much as a hard rebuild. What happens with the team’s contracts in two years when everyone expires except kane, toews, Keith, seabs, and cat? I’ve had to do models on it, and soooo much has to go right.

    Owen Power for the win, pain for Shane. Nuff said.

    Dach just still has several flaws guys like me just don’t like. Statistics and analytics make up a huge part of my job and it’s a hard look with him. Everything he suppose to good at he is, and everything he was bad at he still is. I did see the pronman article and honestly after the top 20, it was clear to see how subjective it was. I’m not saying he isn’t great, but he’s prone to weird choices like everyone. That newhook ranking was borderline criminal. The stretch between perfetti and Rossi was staggering. I had perfetti getting drafted in the teens! I almost made it. So it wasn’t terrible, but it’s like any list, there’s some you agree with and don’t. Dach’s rank was fine, maybe a little high for my taste, but hey, his opinion. He’s definitely the biggest X factor for the hawks going forward, but he’s gotta clean so much bad stuff in his game but none of the coaches will tell him because they don’t give a crap about modern game style.
    22 oct. 2020 à 15 h 34
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    Modifié 22 oct. 2020 à 15 h 46
    Quoting: HatterTParty
    Like I said, I completely get what your saying and respect it. It’s an optimistic view. We are just having one of our “ends of the spectrum” debates is all.

    No matter what happens in the next three years, there’s simply nothing this team has done in the last 5-6 years to suggest they can grow the prospects properly. I’m not gonna talk about cup runs. I’m not even thinking of the possibility of a cup for another decade honestly. Never mind 4-5 years from now cuz there’s nothing suggesting that’s possible. Optimistically, sure, it’s possible, but my job requires me to be a realist. I’m fine with keeping toews and Kane, so long as an actual rebuild happens, cuz I’ve seen this smokescreen before. Not to mention, what happens when Colliton gets an extension? There goes your rebuild dead on arrival.

    The problem I have with a passive, soft rebuild is that it requires way too many things to go right as much as a hard rebuild. What happens with the team’s contracts in two years when everyone expires except kane, toews, Keith, seabs, and cat? I’ve had to do models on it, and soooo much has to go right.

    Owen Power for the win, pain for Shane. Nuff said.

    Dach just still has several flaws guys like me just don’t like. Statistics and analytics make up a huge part of my job and it’s a hard look with him. Everything he suppose to good at he is, and everything he was bad at he still is. I did see the pronman article and honestly after the top 20, it was clear to see how subjective it was. I’m not saying he isn’t great, but he’s prone to weird choices like everyone. That newhook ranking was borderline criminal. The stretch between perfetti and Rossi was staggering. I had perfetti getting drafted in the teens! I almost made it. So it wasn’t terrible, but it’s like any list, there’s some you agree with and don’t. Dach’s rank was fine, maybe a little high for my taste, but hey, his opinion. He’s definitely the biggest X factor for the hawks going forward, but he’s gotta clean so much bad stuff in his game but none of the coaches will tell him because they don’t give a crap about modern game style.


    You're right, a lot has to go right in a soft rebuild but when you have core young pieces like Dach, Kubalik, Debrincat, Strome, Boqvist, Mitchell, and expiring money tied to De Haan, Saad and Maatta's retentions, Shaw, Smith, Carps, Murphy, etc. coming off the books in 2 years or less, I get why there is enough reason to do a soft rebuild not to mention an expansion in a year as you can now afford to keep the guys that expire in 2 years...sure maybe 1 of them is moved like a Boqvist or a Strome.

    Looking 4 to 5 years down the road to making a run, you also have Seabs coming off the books (if not sooner) and that creates the cap ability to acquire a final piece to the puzzle in a top 6 role or top D line role. We do have a very strong young core in those guys already on the roster and 4 more years of development, like I said, will determine if 80% of those guys reach their potential (room for 1 to falter or get traded) and a must from Dach.

    The alternative is you do a full rebuild and move all the core guys for picks and prospects and gamble that they work out. Your timetable goes from 4 to 5 years and turns to 6 to 7. In that process the team loses any identity they have and can turn into a cycle of players not working out and bottom 3rd performances year after year, and having 1 or 2 stars that don't like their team; see Buffalo, Ottawa, Arizona, Edmonton, etc. It's great to have a eichel on your team and a dahlin but where's the identity and how many years of bottom 3rd in the league finishes does it take?

    Every single player has flaws in his game, even Austin Matthews who is easily the #1 prospect/player under the age of 23 in the league. What you are saying is not entirely true because Dach wasn't "supposed to be" a great skater and be slow; he's not. Dach is above average with his speed and proved all his critics on that point wrong. He worked hard during the break and emphasized this in the play-in and playoff series which is something to be excited about as he heard his critics and purposely worked on it....he even talked about this in a interview a couple months ago. Dach is very smart to that end. Yes, I agree Rossi is ranked too low and think Turcotte should be around numbers 45 to 55, but despite what I wanted prior to the draft and after the draft, I'm very glad the Hawks didn't take Turcotte at this point. His flaws were highlighted playing against bigger more physical competition in the NCAA and only will get worse in the NHL. He's going to take a lot of time to develop and could see him being the next Kotkaniemi who is going to struggle in the first few years in the NHL and may never adjust to become a first liner like Kotkaniemi. Vegas odds, and Pronman agrees, Dach is higher rated then either because his adjustments are more minor in comparison to reach his potential. So the question really in mind is, did the Hawks screw up by not taking Byram or Cozens (along with Turcotte those were really the only options at #3) and I have a feeling they didn't as does Pronman. I like that some of the hype of Jack Hughes has died off finally, I don't think he's going to be better then Dach or Kappo ultimately. He'll be very good but is overrated IMO and will be in the mix of "who's better besides Dach at C" with Turcotte, Cozens, Zegras, Newhook. Dach is looking more and more like Toews IMO and less like Getlaz. Dach just needs to find work hard on his shot.
    22 oct. 2020 à 16 h 10
    #19
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    Quoting: ChiHawk
    You're right, a lot has to go right in a soft rebuild but when you have core young pieces like Dach, Kubalik, Debrincat, Strome, Boqvist, Mitchell, and expiring money tied to De Haan, Saad and Maatta's retentions, Shaw, Smith, Carps, etc. coming off the books in 2 years or less, I get why there is enough reason to do a soft rebuild not to mention an expansion in a year as you can now afford to keep the guys that expire in 2 years...sure maybe 1 of them is moved like a Boqvist or a Strome.

    Looking 4 to 5 years down the road to making a run, you also have Seabs coming off the books (if not sooner) and that creates the cap ability to acquire a final piece to the puzzle in a top 6 role or top D line role. We do have a very strong young core in those guys already on the roster and 4 more years of development, like I said, will determine if 80% of those guys reach their potential (room for 1 to falter or get traded) and a must from Dach.

    The alternative is you do a full rebuild and move all the core guys for picks and prospects and gamble that they work out. Your timetable goes from 4 to 5 years and turns to 6 to 7. In that process the team loses any identity they have and can turn into a cycle of players not working out and bottom 3rd performances year after year, and having 1 or 2 stars that don't like their team; see Buffalo, Ottawa, Arizona, Edmonton, etc. It's great to have a eichel on your team and a dahlin but where's the identity and how many years of bottom 3rd in the league finishes does it take?

    Every single player has flaws in his game, even Austin Matthews who is easily the #1 prospect/player under the age of 23 in the league. What you are saying is not entirely true because Dach wasn't "supposed to be" a great skater and be slow; he's not. Dach is above average with his speed and proved all his critics on that point wrong. He worked hard during the break and emphasized this in the play-in and playoff series which is something to be excited about as he heard his critics and purposely worked on it....he even talked about this in a interview a couple months ago. Dach is very smart to that end. Yes, I agree Rossi is ranked too low and think Turcotte should be around numbers 45 to 55, but despite what I wanted prior to the draft and after the draft, I'm very glad the Hawks didn't take Turcotte at this point. His flaws were highlighted playing against bigger more physical competition in the NCAA and only will get worse in the NHL. He's going to take a lot of time to develop and could see him being the next Kotkaniemi who is going to struggle in the first few years in the NHL and may never adjust to become a first liner like Kotkaniemi. Vegas odds, and Pronman agrees, Dach is higher rated then either because his adjustments are more minor in comparison to reach his potential. So the question really in mind is, did the Hawks screw up by not taking Byram or Cozens (along with Turcotte those were really the only options at #3) and I have a feeling they didn't as does Pronman. I like that some of the hype of Jack Hughes has died off finally, I don't think he's going to be better then Dach or Kappo ultimately. He'll be very good but is overrated IMO and will be in the mix of "who's better besides Dach at C" with Turcotte, Cozens, Zegras, Newhook. Dach is looking more and more like Toews IMO and less like Getlaz. Dach just needs to find work hard on his shot.


    Let me preface by saying if the hawks trade boqvist and that’s ANOTHER 1st traded, and I’m gonna lose it.

    A big thing in all this that no one has approached yet still boils down to having the right people involved. The players are one thing, and frankly, while they are promising, we still don’t enough of the “right” players. In fact, what this team needs is players with more fight in them. Even if they’re smaller they have to compete. They have to drive possession. They have to forecheck. People don’t buy into analytics a lot these days, but corsi is a huge difference maker in a champion still. At present, even Kane and toews are awful analytically. That’s why I love Vegas so much, they built their team as a cohesive, hard working team unit and no one gave them a chance. Now, they’re the best possession team in the league. People will say they don’t have a cup, but that’s what happens when a hot goalie emerges in the playoffs. The hawks knew that feeling in 2012, 2016, and 2017. The hawks don’t have players with the same fight as Vegas or the same up tempo drive like the avalanche.

    Dach being compared to hughes and kakko is getting old. I really can’t stand it anymore. All three still suffered their own personal problems in year 1. For Dach it was inconsistency. Hughes was size. For Kakko it was playing on North American ice. There’s no point in questioning the Dach pick. I don’t anymore, I just adapt to it. Even if he becomes a 1C on this team, even at his full potential, that doesn’t win us a cup. That’s just projection on my part based on every metric at my disposal. Remember how I said I love Vegas? That’s why. The sum of their parts are more important than the pieces themselves. Sure they have stone (who btw I will take over any winger in the league bar absolutely none), pacioretty, Theodore, and other top notch players, but none will ever win a hart trophy. Dach’s problems in my eyes are not limited to one or two things, it’s numerous attributes mixed with his playing style. I know that’s vague, but the focus isn’t how he fits into the full scheme, but rather let’s make him an individual superstar, which I don’t support.
    22 oct. 2020 à 16 h 29
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    Let me preface by saying if the hawks trade boqvist and that’s ANOTHER 1st traded, and I’m gonna lose it.

    A big thing in all this that no one has approached yet still boils down to having the right people involved. The players are one thing, and frankly, while they are promising, we still don’t enough of the “right” players. In fact, what this team needs is players with more fight in them. Even if they’re smaller they have to compete. They have to drive possession. They have to forecheck. People don’t buy into analytics a lot these days, but corsi is a huge difference maker in a champion still. At present, even Kane and toews are awful analytically. That’s why I love Vegas so much, they built their team as a cohesive, hard working team unit and no one gave them a chance. Now, they’re the best possession team in the league. People will say they don’t have a cup, but that’s what happens when a hot goalie emerges in the playoffs. The hawks knew that feeling in 2012, 2016, and 2017. The hawks don’t have players with the same fight as Vegas or the same up tempo drive like the avalanche.

    Dach being compared to hughes and kakko is getting old. I really can’t stand it anymore. All three still suffered their own personal problems in year 1. For Dach it was inconsistency. Hughes was size. For Kakko it was playing on North American ice. There’s no point in questioning the Dach pick. I don’t anymore, I just adapt to it. Even if he becomes a 1C on this team, even at his full potential, that doesn’t win us a cup. That’s just projection on my part based on every metric at my disposal. Remember how I said I love Vegas? That’s why. The sum of their parts are more important than the pieces themselves. Sure they have stone (who btw I will take over any winger in the league bar absolutely none), pacioretty, Theodore, and other top notch players, but none will ever win a hart trophy. Dach’s problems in my eyes are not limited to one or two things, it’s numerous attributes mixed with his playing style. I know that’s vague, but the focus isn’t how he fits into the full scheme, but rather let’s make him an individual superstar, which I don’t support.


    Yeah but you have to remember, Vegas was able to build from scratch and build an identify from scratch with no baggage (old players big cap hits), a lot of picks, cap space and roster players that were available to them. Seattle should have a lot of the same results. The Hawks are building a new identity on the fly and that's not easy. They are changing the game strategy on ice, again not easy. Some players will adapt and some won't. The young guys can and will. Guys like Keith, who still don't follow the game system and play like he did under Coach Q, will get moved in one way or another if they don't adapt. Other players on the team will start holding team members accountable for not playing under the system. But a new system takes time and more time for older players who have to work hard to undo old habits. Keith is the most notable player who is having a really hard time adapting to the system. Not only watching him in the regular season, but when the Hawks went up against a well oiled machine in Vegas, Keith's departure from the system "risk taking" was taken advantage of by the Knights. He alone was responsible for 3 or 4 goals in the series while the media was fast to hang Boqvist out to dry and give Keith a pass. One of the instances where Boqvist was the fall guy, it was clearly Keith playing up in the neutral zone when he completely lost his man on a rush and Boqvist had to switch from his man to Keith's and wasn't able to successfully. Kane is adapting and I see that, they are asking Kane to actually play defense and he started to (albeit not good at it). Toews was much more successful as he is adapting.

    Coach Q's days were numbered and his coaching system isn't working in today's game. It was time for him to go. Is the JC the right replacement? That's a tough question to answer, his strategy is correct, his system needs some tweeking but definitely more modern. The Hawks of the cup years in that system, would not work in today's league as well IMO and they wouldn't win 3 cups in that system today. So in my mind there is no question we had to make changes and adapt.

    I agree Stone is the most complete winger in the league and would take him over just about any winger in the league. I'm huge fan of 2 way guys, you saw how I like Saad and hossa is my favorite all time player for that reason.
    22 oct. 2020 à 18 h 0
    #21
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    Quoting: ChiHawk
    Yeah but you have to remember, Vegas was able to build from scratch and build an identify from scratch with no baggage (old players big cap hits), a lot of picks, cap space and roster players that were available to them. Seattle should have a lot of the same results. The Hawks are building a new identity on the fly and that's not easy. They are changing the game strategy on ice, again not easy. Some players will adapt and some won't. The young guys can and will. Guys like Keith, who still don't follow the game system and play like he did under Coach Q, will get moved in one way or another if they don't adapt. Other players on the team will start holding team members accountable for not playing under the system. But a new system takes time and more time for older players who have to work hard to undo old habits. Keith is the most notable player who is having a really hard time adapting to the system. Not only watching him in the regular season, but when the Hawks went up against a well oiled machine in Vegas, Keith's departure from the system "risk taking" was taken advantage of by the Knights. He alone was responsible for 3 or 4 goals in the series while the media was fast to hang Boqvist out to dry and give Keith a pass. One of the instances where Boqvist was the fall guy, it was clearly Keith playing up in the neutral zone when he completely lost his man on a rush and Boqvist had to switch from his man to Keith's and wasn't able to successfully. Kane is adapting and I see that, they are asking Kane to actually play defense and he started to (albeit not good at it). Toews was much more successful as he is adapting.

    Coach Q's days were numbered and his coaching system isn't working in today's game. It was time for him to go. Is the JC the right replacement? That's a tough question to answer, his strategy is correct, his system needs some tweeking but definitely more modern. The Hawks of the cup years in that system, would not work in today's league as well IMO and they wouldn't win 3 cups in that system today. So in my mind there is no question we had to make changes and adapt.

    I agree Stone is the most complete winger in the league and would take him over just about any winger in the league. I'm huge fan of 2 way guys, you saw how I like Saad and hossa is my favorite all time player for that reason.


    I remember when boqvist was getting the flak. I was pissed, and I also wanted to curb stomp Colliton for not letting him play afterwards. That was completely unfair to the kid, so I agree with you there.

    As for JC’s system, I’m not as embracing nor convinced by it at all. For that matter, what do you interpret as this team’s identity? In my eyes, the identity was gone the second Q was fired in all honesty. Since that day, they haven’t had one. JC’s system is.........what exactly though? Cuz in today’s NHL you have to preach some form of possession, which doesn’t exist in Colliton’s approach. His approach is a European approach, plain and simple. That being said, as for others buying into the approach, I know toews isn’t a fan, while Kane simply just plays his own way. Toews just adapts.

    If we did use Q’s system today I have no doubt it would work because it was rooted in fast hockey with plenty of possession. Sure the game is a bit broader these days, but Q always had the talent to adapt.
    22 oct. 2020 à 23 h 20
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    Quoting: HatterTParty
    I remember when boqvist was getting the flak. I was pissed, and I also wanted to curb stomp Colliton for not letting him play afterwards. That was completely unfair to the kid, so I agree with you there.

    As for JC’s system, I’m not as embracing nor convinced by it at all. For that matter, what do you interpret as this team’s identity? In my eyes, the identity was gone the second Q was fired in all honesty. Since that day, they haven’t had one. JC’s system is.........what exactly though? Cuz in today’s NHL you have to preach some form of possession, which doesn’t exist in Colliton’s approach. His approach is a European approach, plain and simple. That being said, as for others buying into the approach, I know toews isn’t a fan, while Kane simply just plays his own way. Toews just adapts.

    If we did use Q’s system today I have no doubt it would work because it was rooted in fast hockey with plenty of possession. Sure the game is a bit broader these days, but Q always had the talent to adapt.


    Come on man, Q never adapted be it the system or the players. As great of a coach he was at the time, that was always his issue; stubborn and unwilling to adapt.
    22 oct. 2020 à 23 h 41
    #23
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    Quoting: ChiHawk
    Come on man, Q never adapted be it the system or the players. As great of a coach he was at the time, that was always his issue; stubborn and unwilling to adapt.


    I’ll give you this, it is debatable. I do think he adapted well to opponents, and for years it worked considering the immense talent at his disposal. However, there’s no question that he was stubborn, especially with personnel choices. He was never big on the youth and I still believe that getting rid of leddy was a bit of a catalyst for ending the era, even it wasn’t felt till a few years later. Leddy’s corsi was godly.

    At his core though, he was indeed a players’ coach. He just always knew how to motivate the team. Colliton really doesn’t have the man management or tactical expertise that is expected in a top coach. In a team that needs another identity, JC doesn’t really provide one.
     
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