SalarySwishSalarySwish
Forums/Armchair-GM

Top 30 Centers in the league come attack me

Créé par: MelonVK
Équipe: 2020-21 Équipe personnalisée
Date de création initiale: 19 oct. 2020
Publié: 19 oct. 2020
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
I'm doing this because I hate myself and feed off of your anger. I can already tell this is going to be brutal, but well, I guess I love attention?

I didn't make this list for you to tell me that Connor McDavid actually is really good, I clearly disagree with him being the #1 player in the game. If you can't play defense, at a certain point your offense isn't enough. It doesn't matter if you're McDavid, Draisaitl, Ovechkin (apparently only Nylander who's way better defensively than all those guys). No, Barkov isn't some secret defensive gem, he had other good underlying numbers though, but he's catched up to those in terms of production now - again he's not a secret at this point. ROR, Toews, Krejci, Larkin and Hischier are pretty much that on the other hand.
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
3281 500 000 $230 367 166 $0 $2 850 000 $-148 867 166 $

Formation

Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
Logo de Avalanche du Colorado
6 300 000 $6 300 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo de Sharks de San Jose
8 000 000 $8 000 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 7
Logo de Flyers de Philadelphie
4 333 333 $4 333 333 $
C
UFA - 2
Logo de Canadiens de Montréal
3 083 333 $3 083 333 $
C
UFA - 1
Logo de Canucks de Vancouver
925 000 $925 000 $ (Bonis de performance2 850 000 $$3M)
C, AG
UFA - 1
Logo de Capitals de Washington
3 900 000 $3 900 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 5
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
8 700 000 $8 700 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo de Flames de Calgary
6 375 000 $6 375 000 $
C, AG, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo de Bruins de Boston
6 875 000 $6 875 000 $
C
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
11 640 250 $11 640 250 $
C
UFA - 4
Logo de Oilers d'Edmonton
12 500 000 $12 500 000 $
C
UFA - 6
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
11 000 000 $11 000 000 $
C, AG
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo de Lightning de Tampa Bay
6 750 000 $6 750 000 $
C, AD
UFA - 2
Logo de Lightning de Tampa Bay
8 500 000 $8 500 000 $
AG, C
NMC
UFA - 4
Logo de Oilers d'Edmonton
8 500 000 $8 500 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 5
Logo de Jets de Winnipeg
6 125 000 $6 125 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
9 500 000 $9 500 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 2
Logo de Panthers de la Floride
5 900 000 $5 900 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 2
Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
10 500 000 $10 500 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 3
Logo de Sabres de Buffalo
10 000 000 $10 000 000 $
C
UFA - 6
Logo de Hurricanes de la Caroline
8 460 250 $8 460 250 $
C
UFA - 4
Logo de Capitals de Washington
9 200 000 $9 200 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo de Blues de St-Louis
1 875 000 $1 875 000 $
C
UFA - 3
Barzal, Matthew
5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
Logo de Bruins de Boston
7 250 000 $7 250 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo de Red Wings de Detroit
6 100 000 $6 100 000 $
C
UFA - 3
Logo de Kings de Los Angeles
10 000 000 $10 000 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo de Devils du New Jersey
7 250 000 $7 250 000 $
C
UFA - 7
Logo de Sharks de San Jose
5 625 000 $5 625 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Dubois, Pierre-Luc
5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
Logo de Rangers de New York
5 350 000 $5 350 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 2
Logo de Stars de Dallas
9 850 000 $9 850 000 $
C, AD
NMC
UFA - 7
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but

Unités spéciales

Infériorité numérique 1
 
 
Infériorité numérique 2
 
 

Code d'intégration

  • Pour afficher cette équipe sur un autre site Web ou blog, ajoutez ce iFrame à la page appropriée
  • Personnalisez les dimensions dans le code IFrame ci-dessous pour adapter votre site de manière appropriée. Minimum recommandé: 400px.

Texte intégré

Cliquer pour surligner
19 oct. 2020 à 17 h 45
#26
torontos finest
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2019
Messages: 9,546
Mentions "j'aime": 11,169
Quoting: MelonVK
You realise how flawed your thinking is?

If the best offensive forward in the league is the worst defensive forward in the league he's league average in theory. Needing "to break 60 points" is the strangest requirement. What if you're the best defensive forward in the league - no one can score on you, and you always manage 59 points and +59 every season - are you not the best forward in the league, never mind on this list?

Now, I even have some leeway here: if you're immensely talented offensively, but equally poor on defense, that's still better than average on both - since coaches can adjust situations for you.

I'd love to hear your justification for offense apparently counting for approx. 90% of player value.


this is what happens when you write a conclusion to your thesis before the hypothesis
AndrewLadd a aimé ceci.
19 oct. 2020 à 17 h 46
#27
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: RangerWall92
You're a bruins fan. Makes sense


Thought you'd see the little banner under my name saying "watches no games" but alright. I actually have the feeling bruins fans are some of the people disagreeing most with my thoughts
19 oct. 2020 à 17 h 49
#28
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: Breadmanhawks
You are ignoring the fact that a forward's specific responsibility is to score goals where as a defensemen is meant to prevent goals.


No it isn't. And even if it was, it would be arbitrary and dumb. "Forward" and "Defenseman" are names of positions, not separate objectives while on the ice. The objective is to score more goals than your opponent scores on you.

Quoting: Breadmanhawks
Also, you are making an assumption that defensive forwards can prevent goals at the same rate that offensive forwards can score goals. When in a reality, an elite defensive forward has less control over goals allowed as elite offensive forwards have over goals scored.


I don't make that assumption, and I actually agree with that sentiment. That's why ROR is below a lot of those guys, but a guy who's great at both scoring and prevention like Couturier is really highly rated.
19 oct. 2020 à 17 h 52
#29
Lets Go Blues
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2016
Messages: 6,750
Mentions "j'aime": 4,320
You justified some of your decisions with defensive play but then you put Toews on there like you haven't seen him in the last few yrs when he abandoned all defense. And krejci who has never really played much defense
RangerWall92 a aimé ceci.
19 oct. 2020 à 17 h 54
#30
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: A_K
You justified some of your decisions with defensive play but then you put Toews on there like you haven't seen him in the last few yrs when he abandoned all defense.


Not only is this not true, but he's actually not bad on offense either. He and Saad hit a lot of posts and struck some ridiculously low shooting luck along with Crawford being generally poor with them on the ice for no other apparent reason.
19 oct. 2020 à 17 h 56
#31
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2020
Messages: 1,039
Mentions "j'aime": 369
Quoting: MelonVK
No it isn't. And even if it was, it would be arbitrary and dumb. "Forward" and "Defenseman" are names of positions, not separate objectives while on the ice. The objective is to score more goals than your opponent scores on you.



I don't make that assumption, and I actually agree with that sentiment. That's why ROR is below a lot of those guys, but a guy who's great at both scoring and prevention like Couturier is really highly rated.


Having the same objective doesn't mean that you have the same role. Goalies do not contribute to goals scored; so that must mean that their defensive play is overshadowed by their lack of offense, right?

Yeah but Couturier doesn't score enough to be in this conversation. I don't have a problem with valuing defense in when deciding who is best. But to pretend like it's an equal "split down the middle" thing is just ridiculous because the different roles.
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 3
#32
Lets Go Blues
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2016
Messages: 6,750
Mentions "j'aime": 4,320
Quoting: MelonVK
Not only is this not true, but he's actually not bad on offense either. He and Saad hit a lot of posts and struck some ridiculously low shooting luck along with Crawford being generally poor with them on the ice for no other apparent reason.


6th worst xGA/60 in the league last season for guys with over 500 toi but you're saying his 102 PDO makes him snake bitten?
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 7
#33
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: Breadmanhawks
Having the same objective doesn't mean that you have the same role. Goalies do not contribute to goals scored; so that must mean that their defensive play is overshadowed by their lack of offense, right?

Yeah but Couturier doesn't score enough to be in this conversation. I don't have a problem with valuing defense in when deciding who is best. But to pretend like it's an equal "split down the middle" thing is just ridiculous because the different roles.


If a goalie let 10 goals in but scored 20 every game he'd be the most valuable player in the league. I don't get how you can't construct these scenarios to get the philosophy behind what I'm saying. Now, realistically, goalies don't contribute to offense, but if they did that would be a valuable aspect to their game, of course, and it's not that hard to understand.

Couturier scores at a pace of most of these guys while being in the top percentiles of defense. I don't even agree entirely to split it down the middle, cause offense is typically more repeatable, and thus predictable of player skill. But acting like it's some small minority compared to offense is ridiculous, and if you don't understand the arguments I've made for this 3 times already, I don't know what to tell you.

Even if we give defense 75% of the value of offense, let's say Couts being some 85th percentile on offense and 95th on defense is WAY better than McDavid being 99th on Offense and about 5th on defense. Even if Couturier was actively bad at scoring, we'd be able to have this conversation about who's better - because Connor is actively bad at defense. Luckily, Couturier isn't, he's actually great at both.
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 8
#34
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: A_K
6th worst xGA/60 in the league last season for guys with over 500 toi but you're saying his 102 PDO makes him snake bitten?


I haven't updated on last season, and I'd rather check out a 3 year moving average or whatever, but if he's really bad this year then I don't mind removing him from the list. It's a good catch if that's the case and my bad for not being updated!
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 12
#35
Lets Go Blues
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2016
Messages: 6,750
Mentions "j'aime": 4,320
Quoting: MelonVK
I haven't updated on last season, and I'd rather check out a 3 year moving average or whatever, but if he's really bad this year then I don't mind removing him from the list. It's a good catch if that's the case and my bad for not being updated!


No worries I was surprised (but happy heh) to see his decline when I was comparing how hes been to ROR. Toews had some unstoppable years but he or his system or both have just abandoned defense these days.
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 17
#36
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: A_K
No worries I was surprised (but happy heh) to see his decline when I was comparing how hes been to ROR. Toews had some unstoppable years but he or his system or both have just abandoned defense these days.


It might also be blurred by Saad who's very good at that exact thing, too (unless I need to update on that as well, but I'd assume no since Colorado is way more aware of this than me personally).

I'm also just intuitively going a bit away from convention - I knew ROR was *VERY* good when he left Buffalo, but I also didn't try to slot him into some top 5-10 C list just because he won a cup. He's been steadily great and just outside of that range as far as I'm aware.

With the same sentiment, I try to push back on people saying Toews turned into garbage because Chicago did, when in reality they're probably the same people who tried to say he was the best in the league 7 years ago.
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 27
#37
Lets Go Blues
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2016
Messages: 6,750
Mentions "j'aime": 4,320
Quoting: MelonVK
It might also be blurred by Saad who's very good at that exact thing, too (unless I need to update on that as well, but I'd assume no since Colorado is way more aware of this than me personally).

I'm also just intuitively going a bit away from convention - I knew ROR was *VERY* good when he left Buffalo, but I also didn't try to slot him into some top 5-10 C list just because he won a cup. He's been steadily great and just outside of that range as far as I'm aware.

With the same sentiment, I try to push back on people saying Toews turned into garbage because Chicago did, when in reality they're probably the same people who tried to say he was the best in the league 7 years ago.


Yeah I've pegged ROR around the 10-15 range and toews probably recently got pushed out of my top 25 but hes not totally washed
MelonVK a aimé ceci.
19 oct. 2020 à 18 h 31
#38
Mangiapane Goat
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2020
Messages: 281
Mentions "j'aime": 186
Cmoney
MacK
Sid
Drai/AM34
Drai/AM34
Eichel
Nuff said
20 oct. 2020 à 2 h 39
#39
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2020
Messages: 1,039
Mentions "j'aime": 369
Quoting: MelonVK
If a goalie let 10 goals in but scored 20 every game he'd be the most valuable player in the league. I don't get how you can't construct these scenarios to get the philosophy behind what I'm saying. Now, realistically, goalies don't contribute to offense, but if they did that would be a valuable aspect to their game, of course, and it's not that hard to understand.

Couturier scores at a pace of most of these guys while being in the top percentiles of defense. I don't even agree entirely to split it down the middle, cause offense is typically more repeatable, and thus predictable of player skill. But acting like it's some small minority compared to offense is ridiculous, and if you don't understand the arguments I've made for this 3 times already, I don't know what to tell you.

Even if we give defense 75% of the value of offense, let's say Couts being some 85th percentile on offense and 95th on defense is WAY better than McDavid being 99th on Offense and about 5th on defense. Even if Couturier was actively bad at scoring, we'd be able to have this conversation about who's better - because Connor is actively bad at defense. Luckily, Couturier isn't, he's actually great at both.


I understand that but the whole point I am making is that defensive forwards do not have the control over the defensive game that offensive forwards have over their offense.

The problem with the Couturier argument is he really isn't that great at scoring. If he got 95+ points annually, I would probably agree with you but he's more of a 65-75 point player, and his defense doesn't close the gap in 40+ points between him and McDavid.

Also it's also important to determine what statistics are being used to determine actual defensive impact.
20 oct. 2020 à 4 h 41
#40
Démarrer sujet
Watches no games
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2017
Messages: 3,268
Mentions "j'aime": 976
Quoting: Breadmanhawks
I understand that but the whole point I am making is that defensive forwards do not have the control over the defensive game that offensive forwards have over their offense.

The problem with the Couturier argument is he really isn't that great at scoring. If he got 95+ points annually, I would probably agree with you but he's more of a 65-75 point player, and his defense doesn't close the gap in 40+ points between him and McDavid.

Also it's also important to determine what statistics are being used to determine actual defensive impact.


I agree with your comment almost entirely, but the problem is that he more than well makes up for those 40 points. Not only because Couturier is almost at the very top in league defensive ability, but because McDavid is at the bottom. If McDavid was even average defensively he'd be the best player in the league by far - but he's not close to that.
Breadmanhawks a aimé ceci.
20 oct. 2020 à 5 h 9
#41
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2020
Messages: 1,039
Mentions "j'aime": 369
Quoting: MelonVK
I agree with your comment almost entirely, but the problem is that he more than well makes up for those 40 points. Not only because Couturier is almost at the very top in league defensive ability, but because McDavid is at the bottom. If McDavid was even average defensively he'd be the best player in the league by far - but he's not close to that.


I get that because I'm pretty torn about players like Draisaitl and Kane because obviously their offense is elite but their defense isn't good
MelonVK a aimé ceci.
 
Répondre
To create a post please Login or S'inscrire
Question:
Options:
Ajouter une option
Soumettre le sondage