Forums/Armchair-GM

Different Marner deal

Créé par: TheOtherAuston
Date de création initiale: sep 25, 2020
Publié: 25 sep à 18 h 24
Équipe: 2020-21 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Explications
I don't really have a great feel for what Orlov is worth, and I'm sure Washington is high on vrana but I think Marner would be the guy to get OVI past Gretzky. Be constructive not a crybaby
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
Mikheyev, Ilya42 000 000 $
Hawryluk, Jayce21 150 000 $
Cernak, Erik53 750 000 $
UFAANSCAP HIT
Soucy, Carson32 825 000 $
Offres hostiles
Le salaire annuel moyen (AAV) de l'offre hostile est calculé en divisant la valeur totale du contrat par: 1. La durée totale du contrat, ou 2. Cinq ans
JOUEURAAVCOMPENSATION
Hawryluk, Jayce1 150 000 $Aucune compensation
Transactions
TOR
  1. Orlov, Dmitry
  2. Vrána, Jakub
  3. Leason, Brett
  4. 2020 3e round pick (ARI)
WSH
  1. Marner, Mitchell
  2. Holl, Justin (750 000 $ retained)
  3. 2020 2e round pick (TOR)
TOR
  1. Järnkrok, Calle
NSH
  1. Johnsson, Andreas
  2. 2020 5e round pick (VGK)
TOR
  1. Cernak, Erik [Droits de RFA]
  2. 2021 5e round pick (TBL)
TBL
  1. Liljegren, Timothy
  2. 2021 2e round pick (TOR)
Détails additionnels:
Dermott, agrees to a 1 year QO
TOR
    To be the #1 center for the team in the movie goon
    ANA
    1. Engvall, Pierre
    Rachats de contrats
    • Mikhail Grabovski: 0 $
    Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
    • Justin Holl: 750 000 $ (37,5%)
    • Phil Kessel: 1 200 000 $ (15%)
    ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
    2020
    PIT
    ARI
    TOR
    VGK
    TOR
    CAR
    COL
    SJS
    STL
    WPG
    2021
    TOR
    TOR
    TOR
    TBL
    TOR
    TOR
    2022
    TOR
    TOR
    TOR
    TOR
    TOR
    TOR
    TOR
    TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
    2381 500 000 $80 846 367 $0 $82 500 $653 633 $

    Formation

    Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
    WSH
    Vrána, Jakub
    3 350 000 $
    AG
    RFA - 1
    TOR
    Matthews, Auston
    11 634 000 $
    C
    UFA - 4
    TOR
    Nylander, William
    6 962 366 $
    AD, AG
    UFA - 4
    TOR
    Robertson, Nicholas
    821 667 $
    AG
    RFA - 3
    TOR
    Tavares, John
    11 000 000 $
    C
    NMC
    UFA - 5
    TOR
    Hyman, Zach
    2 250 000 $
    AG, AD
    NTC
    UFA - 1
    TOR
    Mikheyev, Ilya
    2 000 000 $
    AG, AD
    RFA
    TOR
    Kerfoot, Alexander
    3 500 000 $
    C, AG
    UFA - 3
    TOR
    Barabanov, Alexander
    925 000 $
    AD, AG
    UFA - 1
    Hawryluk, Jayce
    1 150 000 $
    AG, C
    RFA - 1
    NSH
    Järnkrok, Calle
    2 000 000 $
    AG, C
    UFA - 2
    TOR
    Korshkov, Yegor
    925 000 $
    AD
    RFA - 1
    Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
    TOR
    Rielly, Morgan
    5 000 000 $
    DG
    NTC
    UFA - 2
    WSH
    Orlov, Dmitry
    5 100 000 $
    DD
    NTC
    UFA - 3
    TOR
    Andersen, Frederik
    5 000 000 $
    G
    NTC
    UFA - 1
    TOR
    Muzzin, Jake
    5 625 000 $
    DG
    NMC
    UFA - 4
    Cernak, Erik
    3 750 000 $
    DD
    RFA
    TOR
    Campbell, Jack
    1 650 000 $
    G
    UFA - 2
    Soucy, Carson
    2 825 000 $
    D
    UFA - 3
    TOR
    Lehtonen, Mikko
    925 000 $
    DG
    UFA - 1
    Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
    TOR
    Sandin, Rasmus
    894 167 $
    DG
    RFA - 2
    TOR
    Der-Arguchintsev, Semyon
    766 667 $
    C
    RFA - 3
    WSH
    Leason, Brett
    842 500 $
    AD
    RFA - 2

    Unités spéciales

    Avantage numérique 1
    Matthews, A.
    Tavares, J.
    Hyman, Z.
    Rielly, M.
    Nylander, W.
    Avantage numérique 2
    Robertson, N.
    Kerfoot, A.
    Vrána, J.
    Lehtonen, M.
    Mikheyev, I.
    Infériorité numérique 1
    Hyman, Z.
    Barabanov, A.
    Muzzin, J.
    Cernak, E.
    Infériorité numérique 2
    Mikheyev, I.
    Järnkrok, C.
    Rielly, M.
    Orlov, D.

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    25 sep à 18 h 28
    #1
    Markyyy
    Rejoint: sep 2020
    Messages: 168
    Mentions "j'aime": 53
    Leaf fans are nuts. Top 5 wingers dont grow on trees you know.
    Misterrainer a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 18 h 32
    #2
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    Quoting: TheBetterTkachuk
    Leaf fans are nuts. Top 5 wingers dont grow on trees you know.


    I'm not simple, I understand that I would rather have a well distributed team instead of three guys making north of 10 and having minimal defense and depth
    Eli et OlegP a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 18 h 58
    #3
    Rejoint: mar 2018
    Messages: 5,496
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    🤦🏻‍♂️

    This ain't it. Marner stays.
    25 sep à 19 h 00
    #4
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: Ryminister_27
    🤦🏻‍♂️

    This ain't it. Marner stays.


    Offer a solution, not a pointless opinion.
    OlegP a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 19 h 25
    #5
    Rejoint: mar 2018
    Messages: 5,496
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    Quoting: TheOtherAuston
    Offer a solution, not a pointless opinion.


    I take it you can't read then. I offered the solution. Read first. Then comeback with your pointless comment.
    25 sep à 19 h 28
    #6
    Leafs
    Rejoint: mai 2019
    Messages: 4,555
    Mentions "j'aime": 1,578
    my requirement for Marner trade:

    - top 4 RD
    - replacement top 6 winger
    - mid first / higher end prospect
    - 2nd / mid tier prospect

    That gets the convo going for me. Otherwise I'd prefer to keep Marner
    Misterrainer a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 19 h 28
    #7
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: Ryminister_27
    I take it you can't read then. I offered the solution. Read first. Then comeback with your pointless comment.


    Tell you what you want a perennial first round exit team you go ahead and keep him Mr.Dubas
    Eli a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 19 h 31
    #8
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: leafs101
    my requirement for Marner trade:

    - top 4 RD
    - replacement top 6 winger
    - mid first / higher end prospect
    - 2nd / mid tier prospect

    That gets the convo going for me. Otherwise I'd prefer to keep Marner


    I mean that's pretty close to what I was trying to do here I only held back cause like I said I'm not certain on orlovs value and thought vrana is a great replacement for the cost maybe drop the pick to Washington and upgrade the third to a second and add another prospect
    25 sep à 19 h 32
    #9
    Barilko14
    Rejoint: mai 2015
    Messages: 1,295
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    Considering that contract as offer sheet would cost the Leafs a 2nd, Dermott and Liljegren on top of a 2nd is an overpay.
    25 sep à 19 h 32
    #10
    Rejoint: sep 2020
    Messages: 98
    Mentions "j'aime": 9
    Quoting: leafs101
    my requirement for Marner trade:

    - top 4 RD
    - replacement top 6 winger
    - mid first / higher end prospect
    - 2nd / mid tier prospect

    That gets the convo going for me. Otherwise I'd prefer to keep Marner


    And add another first round pick on there
    25 sep à 19 h 36
    #11
    Caps fan idk why
    Rejoint: déc 2016
    Messages: 8,121
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    Washington has no reason to make this trade. We give up a top pairing LHD and a top 6 LW for Marner and we lose what 5 million in cap? Lmfao why do we do this? Marner is great but his cap hit sucks. Vrana is really solid so is Orlov. This makes us worse.
    Eli et OlegP a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 19 h 37
    #12
    Caps fan idk why
    Rejoint: déc 2016
    Messages: 8,121
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    Quoting: OB16
    And add another first round pick on there


    Good luck. Lol
    Eli a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 19 h 38
    #13
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: OB16
    And add another first round pick on there


    No that's definitely to far
    25 sep à 19 h 40
    #14
    Who adds what?
    Rejoint: jui 2017
    Messages: 11,598
    Mentions "j'aime": 2,146
    "I don't really have a great feel for what Orlov is worth, and I'm sure Washington is high on vrana but I think Marner would be the guy to get OVI past Gretzky. Be constructive not a crybaby"

    Orlov is really, really consistent. Over the last five years, among left-shot defensemen, he's tied with Yandle for 7th in even strength points, just one ahead of Krug and two ahead of Muzzin: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20152016&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=D&shootsCatches=L&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

    On a lot of teams, Orlov could be the power play point guy, and have some 60 point seasons, but in WSH he's more likely to kill penalties and play a shutdown role. So his value is basically Muzzin, a little pricier, but 2.5 years younger. Same skill, but same role makes both almost anonymous, but still very valuable.

    This year, among left wings, Vrana tied Gaudreau for 10th in even strength points, with 40: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=L&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

    Among right wings, Marner was 8th this year, with 42: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=R&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

    Not that different. Both played with good centers. Both did well.

    The biggest difference between Vrana's and Marner's trade value to a team with room on its top power play unit for either of them would be Marner's power play points output. To Washington, the biggest difference is cap hit. For the price of Marner, WSH has Vrana plus TJ Oshie, who was on pace for 31g 58p this year.

    So my idea of a counteroffer would be something more like Marner and Mikheyev for Vrana and Oshie. Each team gives up one good contract and one bad one. WSH gets a little younger, while Tor adds two leaders with a recent championship. Tor gives up guys who totaled 90 points this year, and gets back guys who totaled 101 points this year.

    Basically, each team gets to say it got rid of its worst contract, without a significant drop in talent.
    25 sep à 19 h 40
    #15
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: Capitalfail67
    Washington has no reason to make this trade. We give up a top pairing LHD and a top 6 LW for Marner and we lose what 5 million in cap? Lmfao why do we do this? Marner is great but his cap hit sucks. Vrana is really solid so is Orlov. This makes us worse.


    I didn't know he played the left for the caps I just saw his official position and looked at his numbers if he is one of your top left sides than you are right it doesn't work.
    Eli et Capitalfail67 a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 19 h 45
    #16
    Leafs
    Rejoint: mai 2019
    Messages: 4,555
    Mentions "j'aime": 1,578
    Quoting: TheOtherAuston
    I mean that's pretty close to what I was trying to do here I only held back cause like I said I'm not certain on orlovs value and thought vrana is a great replacement for the cost maybe drop the pick to Washington and upgrade the third to a second and add another prospect


    I think Orlov is maybe a bit less than I would hope on the D side just because we have too many left shots as it is, and Vrana maybe a bit more than I could ask for as a replacement. For me, it'd be:

    Orlov
    Vrana
    1st
    C level prospect

    for Marner +3rd, and throw in a guy like Holl or Johnsson if you'd like

    Not saying WSH should or shouldn't do it, not saying I would or wouldn't take this, just saying what it'd take for me to even consider and to get talks going on a deal of this nature

    If I'm underestimating Orlov, maybe go:

    Vrana
    Orlov
    First
    C prospect

    for Marner, 2nd, other piece like Kerfy/Johnsson/Holl/Engvall, or even 2 of those guys if you want
    25 sep à 19 h 46
    #17
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: Eli
    "I don't really have a great feel for what Orlov is worth, and I'm sure Washington is high on vrana but I think Marner would be the guy to get OVI past Gretzky. Be constructive not a crybaby"

    Orlov is really, really consistent. Over the last five years, among left-shot defensemen, he's tied with Yandle for 7th in even strength points, just one ahead of Krug and two ahead of Muzzin: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20152016&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=D&shootsCatches=L&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

    On a lot of teams, Orlov could be the power play point guy, and have some 60 point seasons, but in WSH he's more likely to kill penalties and play a shutdown role. So his value is basically Muzzin, a little pricier, but 2.5 years younger. Same skill, but same role makes both almost anonymous, but still very valuable.

    This year, among left wings, Vrana tied Gaudreau for 10th in even strength points, with 40: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=L&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

    Among right wings, Marner was 8th this year, with 42: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=R&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

    Not that different. Both played with good centers. Both did well.

    The biggest difference between Vrana's and Marner's trade value to a team with room on its top power play unit for either of them would be Marner's power play points output. To Washington, the biggest difference is cap hit. For the price of Marner, WSH has Vrana plus TJ Oshie, who was on pace for 31g 58p this year.

    So my idea of a counteroffer would be something more like Marner and Mikheyev for Vrana and Oshie. Each team gives up one good contract and one bad one. WSH gets a little younger, while Tor adds two leaders with a recent championship. Tor gives up guys who totaled 90 points this year, and gets back guys who totaled 101 points this year.

    Basically, each team gets to say it got rid of its worst contract, without a significant drop in talent.


    Great response thanks for the info on Orlov. But if there isn't a RHD coming back it just doesn't fit for Toronto. Also Oshie is expected to be taken in expansion so it really doesn't affect Washington to much to trade him. I don't think Marners contract is as bad as oshies, it may be longer but Oshie is much older.
    25 sep à 19 h 50
    #18
    Who adds what?
    Rejoint: jui 2017
    Messages: 11,598
    Mentions "j'aime": 2,146
    Quoting: leafs101
    I think Orlov is maybe a bit less than I would hope on the D side just because we have too many left shots as it is, and Vrana maybe a bit more than I could ask for as a replacement. For me, it'd be:

    Orlov
    Vrana
    1st
    C level prospect

    for Marner +3rd, and throw in a guy like Holl or Johnsson if you'd like

    Not saying WSH should or shouldn't do it, not saying I would or wouldn't take this, just saying what it'd take for me to even consider and to get talks going on a deal of this nature


    Your cab is on its way. Do you want me to hold onto your car keys?
    25 sep à 20 h 12
    #19
    Who adds what?
    Rejoint: jui 2017
    Messages: 11,598
    Mentions "j'aime": 2,146
    Quoting: TheOtherAuston
    Great response thanks for the info on Orlov. But if there isn't a RHD coming back it just doesn't fit for Toronto. Also Oshie is expected to be taken in expansion so it really doesn't affect Washington to much to trade him. I don't think Marners contract is as bad as oshies, it may be longer but Oshie is much older.


    Thank you so much!

    The Caps' entire RHD depth chart (excluding minor league UFAs) is: John Carlson, Nick Jensen. They probably prefer not to just throw one in. Carlson is definitely not a throw-in. Tor bid the trade price on Jensen up to where Washington traded their top RHD prospect and a 2nd for him. You probably don't think he's worth Liljegren, but maybe Duszak?

    Oshie's from Washington state, but with his contract, getting Seattle to commit to taking him probably costs the Caps about a 2nd. Oshie is one of the best in the league at playing net-front for screens, tips and rebounds, especially on the power play. The Caps' shooting percentage goes up when he is on the ice. But the Caps would want Seattle to take him because they can just move Tom Wilson up to that role, and be just as good at power plays. They have Hathaway to audition for Wilson's role on PP2. Toronto might prefer to keep Oshie, and keep getting 30 tap-in goals a year. If they just left him exposed, Seattle might be dissuaded by his contract. So it could be a way to keep eight good forwards.

    Marner got two more even strength points this year than Vrana. If you put Vrana on a top power play unit, he'll get as many points as Marner. He and Nylander both speak a tiny bit of Swedish, and that might help with line chemistry. Oshie's contract is bad, but I think I'm proposing a win for the Leafs. I'd have to build it from the Caps side to see whether it could also be a win for the Caps, as is.
    TheOtherAuston a aimé ceci.
    25 sep à 20 h 28
    #20
    Démarrer sujet
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    Quoting: Eli
    Thank you so much!

    The Caps' entire RHD depth chart (excluding minor league UFAs) is: John Carlson, Nick Jensen. They probably prefer not to just throw one in. Carlson is definitely not a throw-in. Tor bid the trade price on Jensen up to where Washington traded their top RHD prospect and a 2nd for him. You probably don't think he's worth Liljegren, but maybe Duszak?

    Oshie's from Washington state, but with his contract, getting Seattle to commit to taking him probably costs the Caps about a 2nd. Oshie is one of the best in the league at playing net-front for screens, tips and rebounds, especially on the power play. The Caps' shooting percentage goes up when he is on the ice. But the Caps would want Seattle to take him because they can just move Tom Wilson up to that role, and be just as good at power plays. They have Hathaway to audition for Wilson's role on PP2. Toronto might prefer to keep Oshie, and keep getting 30 tap-in goals a year. If they just left him exposed, Seattle might be dissuaded by his contract. So it could be a way to keep eight good forwards.

    Marner got two more even strength points this year than Vrana. If you put Vrana on a top power play unit, he'll get as many points as Marner. He and Nylander both speak a tiny bit of Swedish, and that might help with line chemistry. Oshie's contract is bad, but I think I'm proposing a win for the Leafs. I'd have to build it from the Caps side to see whether it could also be a win for the Caps, as is.


    I definitely wouldn't deem it as unfair. It just doesn't work with the leafs cap, vrana is up for an extension next year and his deal would put us over what we move out in this deal and we still don't get a right handed d man
    25 sep à 20 h 33
    #21
    Leafs
    Rejoint: mai 2019
    Messages: 4,555
    Mentions "j'aime": 1,578
    Quoting: Eli
    Your cab is on its way. Do you want me to hold onto your car keys?


    don't understand this but...

    Never said this is fair for WSH, all I said is that is what it would take to pry Marner out of my hands. There's a very key difference there
    25 sep à 20 h 38
    #22
    Who adds what?
    Rejoint: jui 2017
    Messages: 11,598
    Mentions "j'aime": 2,146
    Quoting: leafs101
    don't understand this but...

    Never said this is fair for WSH, all I said is that is what it would take to pry Marner out of my hands. There's a very key difference there


    I'm not going to have a conversation with someone who doesn't read what other people say.
    25 sep à 20 h 40
    #23
    Who adds what?
    Rejoint: jui 2017
    Messages: 11,598
    Mentions "j'aime": 2,146
    Quoting: TheOtherAuston
    I definitely wouldn't deem it as unfair. It just doesn't work with the leafs cap, vrana is up for an extension next year and his deal would put us over what we move out in this deal and we still don't get a right handed d man


    I built the Caps' side, trading away their 2RHD. https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/1953437

    Same problem.

    It seems like two top teams built exactly up to the cap can trade their most problematic contracts and create a little bit of freedom in different spots, but they do need to make deals with other teams in order to actually create any cap space, between them.
    25 sep à 20 h 46
    #24
    Rejoint: mar 2018
    Messages: 5,496
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    Quoting: TheOtherAuston
    Tell you what you want a perennial first round exit team you go ahead and keep him Mr.Dubas


    Lol. So you're solution is to trade a 23 year old wingers who puts up over a point per game for absolute garbage, and then barely upgrade the rest of the roster? .. if you were in charge they wouldn't even make playoffs.
    25 sep à 21 h 10
    #25
    Démarrer sujet
    Rejoint: déc 2019
    Messages: 1,255
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    Quoting: Ryminister_27
    Lol. So you're solution is to trade a 23 year old wingers who puts up over a point per game for absolute garbage, and then barely upgrade the rest of the roster? .. if you were in charge they wouldn't even make playoffs.


    Lol absolute garbage, well that takes your credibility away right there. Research before making baseless claims, once you've done that then come talk to me. And I think you already know the rest of the roster is well improved 3c in a 4c spot, top 4 d man in a bottom six role two new top 4 RHD and a top 6 winger at a third of the price. Get real bud.
     
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