Forums/Armchair-GM

Is Laine Too Much

Créé par: Jarmo
Date de création initiale: sep 25, 2020
Publié: 25 sep 2020 à 9 h 02
Équipe: 2020-21 Blue Jackets de Columbus
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
Dubois, Pierre-Luc46 500 000 $
Gavrikov, Vladislav33 500 000 $
Anderson, Josh13 500 000 $
Transactions
CBJ
  1. Laine, Patrik
WPG
  1. Foudy, Liam
  2. Jenner, Boone
  3. Murray, Ryan (2 300 000 $ retained)
  4. 2020 1e round pick (CBJ)
Rachats de contrats
  • Scott Hartnell: 1 250 000 $
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Ryan Murray: 2 300 000 $ (50%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2020
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
2021
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
2022
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2381 500 000 $84 505 833 $0 $850 000 $-3 005 833 $

Formation

Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
CBJ
Atkinson, Cam
5 875 000 $
AD, AG
NTC
UFA - 5
CBJ
Dubois, Pierre-Luc
6 500 000 $
C
RFA - 2
CBJ
Bjorkstrand, Oliver
2 500 000 $
AD
UFA - 1
CBJ
Nyquist, Gustav
5 500 000 $
AD, AG
UFA - 3
CBJ
Wennberg, Alexander
4 900 000 $
C
UFA - 3
WPG
Laine, Patrik
6 750 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
CBJ
Texier, Alexandre
897 500 $
AG
RFA - 1
CBJ
Wennberg, Alexander
2 250 000 $
C
UFA - 1
CBJ
Anderson, Josh
3 500 000 $
AD
UFA - 7
CBJ
Foligno, Nick
5 500 000 $
AG, C, AD
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
CBJ
Grigorenko, Mikhail
1 200 000 $
C
UFA - 1
CBJ
Bemström, Emil
925 000 $
C, AD
RFA - 2
CBJ
Nash, Riley
2 750 000 $
C, AD
UFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
CBJ
Werenski, Zachary
5 000 000 $
DG
RFA - 2
CBJ
Jones, Seth
5 400 000 $
DD
NTC
UFA - 2
CBJ
Merzlikins, Elvis
4 000 000 $
G
UFA - 2
CBJ
Gavrikov, Vladislav
3 500 000 $
DG
UFA - 3
CBJ
Savard, David
4 250 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
CBJ
Korpisalo, Joonas
2 800 000 $
G
UFA - 2
CBJ
Harrington, Scott
1 633 333 $
DG
UFA - 2
CBJ
Nutivaara, Markus
2 700 000 $
DD
UFA - 2
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
CBJ
Kukan, Dean
1 650 000 $
DD
UFA - 2
CBJ
Dubinsky, Brandon
5 850 000 $
C, AG
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
CBJ
Robinson, Eric
975 000 $
AG
UFA - 2

Unités spéciales

Avantage numérique 1
Laine, P.
Dubois, P.
Nyquist, G.
Jones, S.
Anderson, J.
Avantage numérique 2
Bjorkstrand, O.
Wennberg, A.
Atkinson, C.
Texier, A.
Werenski, Z.
Infériorité numérique 1
Grigorenko, M.
Foligno, N.
Werenski, Z.
Jones, S.
Infériorité numérique 2
Nash, R.
Anderson, J.
Gavrikov, V.
Savard, D.

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Texte intégré

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25 sep 2020 à 9 h 08
#1
Rejoint: aoû 2020
Messages: 43
Mentions "j'aime": 7
they want a second line center if it was scoring they would just keep him
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 9 h 15
#2
Rejoint: mai 2015
Messages: 17,565
Mentions "j'aime": 4,913
Laine could be had but i think your offering the wrong players. Think of it this way, if you want Laine you'll need to make your best offer consisting of 1 single player along with one pick/prospect. The minute you add pieces 3-4-5 your just trying to compensate for the main pieces that we all know arent gonna cut it.

Only way Laine is moved is if a team offers a deal that makes you go "hmm im not sure we won that trade". Thats how you know its probably fair.
Rooney, Trickster, Jarmo and 1 other person a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 9 h 43
#3
Hugh Hefner of CF
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 5,127
Mentions "j'aime": 3,099
Quoting: F50marco
Laine could be had but i think your offering the wrong players. Think of it this way, if you want Laine you'll need to make your best offer consisting of 1 single player along with one pick/prospect. The minute you add pieces 3-4-5 your just trying to compensate for the main pieces that we all know arent gonna cut it.

Only way Laine is moved is if a team offers a deal that makes you go "hmm im not sure we won that trade". Thats how you know its probably fair.


Love what your saying here, cheers.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 10 h 16
#4
Démarrer sujet
Jarmo Kekalainen
Rejoint: jui 2018
Messages: 509
Mentions "j'aime": 158
Quoting: Trickster
Love what your saying here, cheers.


Ok, I see. What about now?
25 sep 2020 à 10 h 18
#5
Rejoint: aoû 2017
Messages: 1,950
Mentions "j'aime": 643
What about Atkinson, Jenner, 1st & 2nd?
Or Atkinson, Texier, 1st, & 2nd?
Texier, Anderson, 1st & 2nd?

Then buyout Wennberg
Leaving Dubois, Foudy, Jenner, Grigorenko & Nash for C depth.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 10 h 22
#6
Hugh Hefner of CF
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 5,127
Mentions "j'aime": 3,099
Quoting: Jarmo
Ok, I see. What about now?


Not sure, @MisstheWhalers
What you think?
25 sep 2020 à 10 h 26
#7
Démarrer sujet
Jarmo Kekalainen
Rejoint: jui 2018
Messages: 509
Mentions "j'aime": 158
Quoting: Bluejackets2000
What about Atkinson, Jenner, 1st & 2nd?
Or Atkinson, Texier, 1st, & 2nd?
Texier, Anderson, 1st & 2nd?

Then buyout Wennberg
Leaving Dubois, Foudy, Jenner, Grigorenko & Nash for C depth.


I like those trades but I don't think Cam would ever get traded, his contract isn't favorable. He's put too much money into the growth of hockey in Columbus (Rick Nash lmao, IK). I don't think Cam would waive his no trade clause either.(My Opinion) I'd go with the your Tex and Andy Proposal.
Bluejackets2000 a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 10 h 27
#8
Démarrer sujet
Jarmo Kekalainen
Rejoint: jui 2018
Messages: 509
Mentions "j'aime": 158
Quoting: Trickster
Love what your saying here, cheers.


It kills me to give up Jenner and Foudy.
25 sep 2020 à 10 h 32
#9
Rejoint: jui 2020
Messages: 2,491
Mentions "j'aime": 723
I don't see any way Winnipeg accepts a rental and a player with 2 years of term as main pieces for Laine.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 11 h 39
#10
Rejoint: mar 2018
Messages: 7,086
Mentions "j'aime": 2,936
I’m pretty sure any trade for Laine would probably start with Werenski from Columbus, and that’s not worth it for us to give up.
bunzy1034 et benjgc a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 12 h 02
#11
Goal Perfetti
Rejoint: mar 2019
Messages: 3,573
Mentions "j'aime": 1,554
Yeah I bet Chevy is asking for PLD, Werenski, or Jones in return, but there is no way the Jackets would part with one of those players
Ajp_18, benjgc et Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 13 h 28
#12
Rejoint: mai 2015
Messages: 17,565
Mentions "j'aime": 4,913
This seems a lot closer than the previous one. Itll come down to how they value Foudy. If they think hes top6 center next year, might be enough. Maybe remove Jenner and Murray and Anderson instead.

Anderson
Foudy
2020 1st

Not saying itll get it done but this is closer.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 14 h 16
#13
Rejoint: mar 2019
Messages: 1,089
Mentions "j'aime": 414
Quoting: Windjammer
I don't see any way Winnipeg accepts a rental and a player with 2 years of term as main pieces for Laine.


Now, if CBJ extended Savard before the deal, so as to give Winnipeg more term... does that change the calculus?
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 15 h 14
#14
Rejoint: jui 2020
Messages: 2,491
Mentions "j'aime": 723
Quoting: benjgc
Now, if CBJ extended Savard before the deal, so as to give Winnipeg more term... does that change the calculus?


Unfortunately with Savard being 30, no.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 16 h 25
#15
cbjthrowaway
Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 206
Mentions "j'aime": 82
Quoting: F50marco
Think of it this way, if you want Laine you'll need to make your best offer consisting of 1 single player along with one pick/prospect. The minute you add pieces 3-4-5 your just trying to compensate for the main pieces that we all know arent gonna cut it.


So there's not a *direct* comp for a Laine trade but there have definitely been plenty of trades for young star forwards that haven't had that one star piece coming back. It's not gonna be a Taylor Hall one-for-one. These guys (not all at Laine's level, obviously) were all traded for packages with some futures and mid-tier roster players:
- Vincent Trocheck
- Jason Zucker
- Taylor Hall (to Arizona)
- Phil Kessel
- JT Miller
- Mark Stone
- Erik Karlsson
- Mike Hoffman
- Jeff Skinner
- Ryan O'Reilly
- Tyler Seguin
- Rick Nash
- Matt Duchene (to OTT)
- Kyle Turris (before he fell off a cliff)
- Artemi Panarin (to CBJ)

I keep seeing people say "CBJ can't do it without giving up Werenski" and stuff like that, but the truth is that these deals RARELY involve another star player coming back. In all likelihood, WPG will move him for a package that fills a couple of holes right now and includes some future pieces that have long-term value.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 16 h 47
#16
Rejoint: mai 2015
Messages: 17,565
Mentions "j'aime": 4,913
Quoting: cbjthrowaway
So there's not a *direct* comp for a Laine trade but there have definitely been plenty of trades for young star forwards that haven't had that one star piece coming back. It's not gonna be a Taylor Hall one-for-one. These guys (not all at Laine's level, obviously) were all traded for packages with some futures and mid-tier roster players:
- Vincent Trocheck
- Jason Zucker
- Taylor Hall (to Arizona)
- Phil Kessel
- JT Miller
- Mark Stone
- Erik Karlsson
- Mike Hoffman
- Jeff Skinner
- Ryan O'Reilly
- Tyler Seguin
- Rick Nash
- Matt Duchene (to OTT)
- Kyle Turris (before he fell off a cliff)
- Artemi Panarin (to CBJ)

I keep seeing people say "CBJ can't do it without giving up Werenski" and stuff like that, but the truth is that these deals RARELY involve another star player coming back. In all likelihood, WPG will move him for a package that fills a couple of holes right now and includes some future pieces that have long-term value.


Ok but you said yourself these are not direct comps and they arent. So cant use the analogy without giving a partially close comparison with it. Also a few trades that support the idea were also terrible trades that shouldnt have been made, even fans knew it. Sometimes GMs just do stupid things sure but im not sure we should be using them as metrics.

Want a better direct comp that takes a lot of factors into consideration? Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones. Thats the type of deal that will have to get it done IMO. Not saying Seth Jones has to go back the other way but its that type of deal that SHOULD get it done. If Wpg wants to do 1st+prospect+mediocre roster player, be my guest. I wouldn't.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 17 h 01
#17
cbjthrowaway
Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 206
Mentions "j'aime": 82
Modifié 25 sep 2020 à 17 h 08
Quoting: F50marco
Ok but you said yourself these are not direct comps and they arent.


Correct, I did say that, and they aren't DIRECT comps, but there's a pattern of star players getting moved for seemingly underwhelming multi-player packages FAR more frequently than getting moved for a similar player at a different position.

Quote:
Also a few trades that support the idea were also terrible trades that shouldnt have been made, even fans knew it. Sometimes GMs just do stupid things sure but im not sure we should be using them as metrics.


That is literally my entire point. GMs frequently make dumb trades when moving star players. I'm not saying Winnipeg SHOULD do a similar trade, I'm saying that it's completely within the realm of possibility that they WILL do a similar trade, given that it's a template that just about every trade involving a star player follows in this league.


Quote:
Want a better direct comp that takes a lot of factors into consideration? Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones. Thats the type of deal that will have to get it done IMO. Not saying Seth Jones has to go back the other way but its that type of deal that SHOULD get it done. If Wpg wants to do 1st+prospect+mediocre roster player, be my guest. I wouldn't.


If you're going with the Joey for Jones comp, WPG is Nashville in that scenario. CBJ was rebuilding, NSH was dealing from a position of depth and trying to make a run. And in doing so they gave up the more valuable player. Ergo, you're looking at Laine for Dumba, straight up.

EDIT: Also… the more I think about it… Boston trading Seguin might be the closest comp we have. Young star player at a deep position on a good team with some holes to fill.
Jarmo a aimé ceci.
25 sep 2020 à 17 h 19
#18
Rejoint: mai 2015
Messages: 17,565
Mentions "j'aime": 4,913
Quoting: cbjthrowaway
Correct, I did say that, and they aren't DIRECT comps, but there's a pattern of star players getting moved for seemingly underwhelming multi-player packages FAR more frequently than getting moved for a similar player at a different position.

Quote:
Also a few trades that support the idea were also terrible trades that shouldnt have been made, even fans knew it. Sometimes GMs just do stupid things sure but im not sure we should be using them as metrics.


That is literally my entire point. GMs frequently make dumb trades when moving star players. I'm not saying Winnipeg SHOULD do a similar trade, I'm saying that it's completely within the realm of possibility that they WILL do a similar trade, given that it's a template that just about every trade involving a star player follows in this league.


Quote:
Want a better direct comp that takes a lot of factors into consideration? Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones. Thats the type of deal that will have to get it done IMO. Not saying Seth Jones has to go back the other way but its that type of deal that SHOULD get it done. If Wpg wants to do 1st+prospect+mediocre roster player, be my guest. I wouldn't.


If you're going with the Joey for Jones comp, WPG is Nashville in that scenario. CBJ was rebuilding, NSH was dealing from a position of depth and trying to make a run. And in doing so they gave up the more valuable player. Ergo, you're looking at Laine for Dumba, straight up.


Those players were all much older than Laine and some were traded as pending UFA's. Thats why those comps dont make sense the most, aside from their value as players. Seguin might work the most but it was one of the worst trades in NHL history.

As for your comp, Seth Jones was on his ELC. Dumba is 3 years from UFA. Not the same.....At all. Johansen was in his RFA contract and so is Laine.

Laine outproduced Johansen at the same age but Johansen plays center and is better defensively.

The circumstances dont have to be exactly as with that Johansen trade, simply gave an idea of the type of value WPG should be looking for in return.

Anyways im not diagreeing with you on the different types of trades that have happened. Im simply not setting the bar for myself at that bad trade that GM made as the metric for a fair Laine deal. Or else everyone on here will be peddling their Adam Larsson for other teams Taylor Halls.
Windjammer et Jarmo a aimé ceci.
 
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