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(PIT/FLA) - Hörnqvist for Matheson, Sceviour

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25 sep à 0 h 14
#76
Caps fan idk why
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Quoting: mhockey91
but at least mathison is a great skater and can move the puck. he needs to work on his turnovers forsure. hopefully playing with marino in a transitional style defense will be better for him


Could ruin Marino? This trade will either be okay where you get a player worth losing a 50 point player. Or it will be JJ 2.0 and this will kill the window. Either way it does t address a single need they had. They had a really solid top4 losing pett or dumo and Inserting him is a L. Paying a guy more than JJ to play his position isn’t wise.
25 sep à 0 h 19
#77
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If Honqvist is healthy he's the more valuable player, hands down. He's clutch in the playoffs and he plays with physicality and provides a strong net front presence. But, "if healthy" is a big if.
25 sep à 0 h 26
#78
mhockey91
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Quoting: Capitalfail67
Could ruin Marino? This trade will either be okay where you get a player worth losing a 50 point player. Or it will be JJ 2.0 and this will kill the window. Either way it does t address a single need they had. They had a really solid top4 losing pett or dumo and Inserting him is a L. Paying a guy more than JJ to play his position isn’t wise.



Yeah I get from a positional need it didn’t make any sense. They have so many LHD. I could see them moving petterson to address their 3C issue tbh. If Matheson is solid, then the net outcome of this trade could be okay. If he sucks. Then pens are doomed and the window is probably shut like you said. One thing forsure is it’s never a dull moment with GMJR...
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25 sep à 3 h 32
#79
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Quoting: Capitalfail67
Lmfao horny was on pace for 50 points and 27 goals. Lol he was still a really good player and this trade absolutely is a massive loss. You said he’s a top 4 LHD ?!?! Based off what? You delusional opinion? Math is a terrible D man. Is there potential? Yeah but why risk a 50 point “dime a dozen lmfao” rw for a D man that you could have got for a 7th round pick. Guess what!?! FLA thought they would have to pay to dump this guy. Lol instead they got a 50 point forward. What did you get? A 26 year old cone? Congrats on the win. Lol


come on man, this is a bad take.
No one wanted to play with Horny in the top 6, he was too slow. He single handedly helped shut those lines down by not being able to keep up. The square peg in a round hole was painfully obvious. I've been saying that for the last 2 years. The guy is in decline.
Yeah he got some goals, hanging around the net like he does. But that isn't the game they want to play. They want to run and gun on the ice. I'm not saying that is a smart move at this point but it is what it is. That's why they are trying to bring in more speed. Some times the production you see in stats doesn't tell the whole story. He clearly didn't fit the top 6 here. And while I think he still had some value, that contract and age weighted it down. He belongs on a team that plays a slower cycle game. He might not weight down a top line there.
I'm not sold on the penguins offense as a strategy. Going down ice, getting one shot and then coming back the other way isn't a great game plan. At some point you need a cycle. But it is the horse they choose to ride on, to run the puck back and forth up and down the ice and open the game up to a faster pace. Frankly I think that explains a lot of their issues. But hey, they have to figure that out on their own.

While I don't think matheson is some top 4LD, I don't know where people get this extremely bad idea from, I also don't think he could be any worse than Schultz who was awful and JJ who I think is out the door. Given the fact that Hornqvist was 5.3 million in basically dead cap, at worst it's a swap. I know I know, the contract is longer. Who care. Defense is easier to move anyway especially when the player is much younger.

What I do think is that if he plays well, he won't be on the penguins for more than 1 year. He'll be gone to Seattle and that will be that.
Don't think the penguins can't get that done. Any team can turn a guy around for 1 year. That's all it takes to move him.
1 year of this guy for Horny isn't all that bad. I have no problem trading Horny for a useful piece they lose in a year. Mainly because they needed to get that contract out.

Now if he plays bad that's a different story. But look at it this way. If they move JJ out, they let Schultz walk, and they move dead cap in Horny. You just lost 14 million in bad cap. And you only brought back 4.9.
It's not horrible. Yes it's a gamble he plays well, but if he does, you moved out 14 million in bad cap, and brought back 0. That's a good off season. He's only like 1 million more than JJ. And if bringing him in means that's the excuse for moving JJ out. I'm not complaining.
25 sep à 7 h 57
#80
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Quoting: Sidstick87
LMFDO

A 34yr old beat up 4th line winger for a 26yr old Top 4 LHD-man

my god the fools on this site


You keep calling him a top 4D, but he was 3rd pair in Florida, and the only Penguins D to get less ev time than him were Ruhwedel and Riikola.

Johnson even got 0:35 more even, and 1:26 more total.
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25 sep à 8 h 16
#81
Hugh Hefner of CF
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Quoting: mhockey91
cant wait till he rebounds in Pittsburgh like Schultz and Daley did. all similar players in similar situations. matheson will be a solid fit


Matheson makes bad decisions and is turn over machine. He is hopeless.

Schultz and Daley were never hopeless.
25 sep à 8 h 20
#82
Hugh Hefner of CF
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The bigger issue is that Pittsburgh did not need yet another bad LD.

JJ is enough alone in that department.


Just imagine JJ and Matheson together on 3rd pair, gives shivers.
25 sep à 8 h 37
#83
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Zito opening a roster spot for Kris Russell. nod
25 sep à 9 h 25
#84
Hockey Super Genius
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Quoting: Yojimbo
You keep calling him a top 4D, but he was 3rd pair in Florida, and the only Penguins D to get less ev time than him were Ruhwedel and Riikola.

Johnson even got 0:35 more even, and 1:26 more total.


He is a top4 D but was used horribly by Coach Q in FLA
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25 sep à 9 h 42
#85
Caps fan idk why
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Quoting: pharrow
come on man, this is a bad take.
No one wanted to play with Horny in the top 6, he was too slow. He single handedly helped shut those lines down by not being able to keep up. The square peg in a round hole was painfully obvious. I've been saying that for the last 2 years. The guy is in decline.
Yeah he got some goals, hanging around the net like he does. But that isn't the game they want to play. They want to run and gun on the ice. I'm not saying that is a smart move at this point but it is what it is. That's why they are trying to bring in more speed. Some times the production you see in stats doesn't tell the whole story. He clearly didn't fit the top 6 here. And while I think he still had some value, that contract and age weighted it down. He belongs on a team that plays a slower cycle game. He might not weight down a top line there.
I'm not sold on the penguins offense as a strategy. Going down ice, getting one shot and then coming back the other way isn't a great game plan. At some point you need a cycle. But it is the horse they choose to ride on, to run the puck back and forth up and down the ice and open the game up to a faster pace. Frankly I think that explains a lot of their issues. But hey, they have to figure that out on their own.

While I don't think matheson is some top 4LD, I don't know where people get this extremely bad idea from, I also don't think he could be any worse than Schultz who was awful and JJ who I think is out the door. Given the fact that Hornqvist was 5.3 million in basically dead cap, at worst it's a swap. I know I know, the contract is longer. Who care. Defense is easier to move anyway especially when the player is much younger.

What I do think is that if he plays well, he won't be on the penguins for more than 1 year. He'll be gone to Seattle and that will be that.
Don't think the penguins can't get that done. Any team can turn a guy around for 1 year. That's all it takes to move him.
1 year of this guy for Horny isn't all that bad. I have no problem trading Horny for a useful piece they lose in a year. Mainly because they needed to get that contract out.

Now if he plays bad that's a different story. But look at it this way. If they move JJ out, they let Schultz walk, and they move dead cap in Horny. You just lost 14 million in bad cap. And you only brought back 4.9.
It's not horrible. Yes it's a gamble he plays well, but if he does, you moved out 14 million in bad cap, and brought back 0. That's a good off season. He's only like 1 million more than JJ. And if bringing him in means that's the excuse for moving JJ out. I'm not complaining.


I’m confused on how it’s a bad take? Horny was on pace for 50 points 27 goals. Last 3 years he was on the exact same pace. “Decline” isn’t really how I would describe him. Maybe you see him as diminishing goods or overpaid but he added a lot of things that the team was missing. Either way at best ... at the very best this is a okay trade. More than likely you traded a 50 point RW for a younger JJ who makes more money. This trade didn’t address a single need. Adding a 4+ million 3Lhd who is known for turnovers....traded a guy who was great in front on the net and added 20-25 goals a year. Yeah I understand why penguin fans are optimistic (what choice do you have) but don’t try to sell this as horny sucks and this kid sucks less bc that ain’t it
25 sep à 10 h 05
#86
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Quoting: Capitalfail67
I’m confused on how it’s a bad take? Horny was on pace for 50 points 27 goals. Last 3 years he was on the exact same pace. “Decline” isn’t really how I would describe him. Maybe you see him as diminishing goods or overpaid but he added a lot of things that the team was missing. Either way at best ... at the very best this is a okay trade. More than likely you traded a 50 point RW for a younger JJ who makes more money. This trade didn’t address a single need. Adding a 4+ million 3Lhd who is known for turnovers....traded a guy who was great in front on the net and added 20-25 goals a year. Yeah I understand why penguin fans are optimistic (what choice do you have) but don’t try to sell this as horny sucks and this kid sucks less bc that ain’t it


saying Horny was a 50 point player doesn't really tell the whole story. You keep ignoring that part.
Like I said, he's not a top 6 player anymore, he's way to slow. Neither Malkin or Crosby wanted someone that slow on their line while they are trying to run up the rush. That was more than clear. He slowed those lines down, that's why he got dropped to the 3rd line.
He also never really clicked on a 3rd pairing, the lack of foot speed was evident. You keep looking at goals and points, but his corsi has dropped like a rock. He use to be a 56% corsi player on the penguins. Last year was the 3rd or 4th straight year of decline down to 48%. For a guy who got 50+% Ozone starts. It was also the first year his corsi events for were lower than his corsi events against.
Those are all bad signs for an aging player.

Horny had his day on this team. But that was when the league was a lot slower and he didn't stick out as much being a bit younger.

There are simply truths to his game. He's not a great defender, in a defensive role in the bottom 6. He's not great moving through the neutral zone and he doesn't really have the ability to skate. You start adding it up and you realize how he was not fitting in.

I'm not judging any of this based on matheson at all. That's all purely on Horny. removing him was addition by subtraction just to start.

matheson is what he is. Now we can say we won't know what he'll be like on the penguins but truth is, you don't have to know that to judge this.
If they use this as the excuse to finally get rid of JJ than can you really look at it as a "bad move"
He can be no worse.
I mean if you ask any penugins fan what they want their defense to look like.
A.
Dumo
Pettersson
Johnson.
or
B.
Dumo
Pettersson
matheson

I'm pretty sure you get a 175% B response.

If he plays well, he's probably gone in the expansion draft given there isn't a lot there to choose form and a good defenseman would probably get picked up. So in that case the contract doesn't mean much.
And if he struggles, it's still better than JJ and Schultz. Who were both awful in their own end. matheson may turn the puck over, but at least he's not incompetent defending.
You can pull the puck out of his hands. Many teams do that. Look at Chara as he aged, they always had McAvoy move the puck when paired with him.

That eliminates the biggest issue with matheson . Especially since the whole penguins defense is designed to move the puck from the right point. AKA Letang, Marino, Schultz.

So yeah, moving a 5.3 million winger who is 34, was obviously declining, for a guy who is an upgrade in the defensive end isn't a bad move. Not nearly what you make it to be.
25 sep à 11 h 19
#87
Caps fan idk why
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Quoting: pharrow
saying Horny was a 50 point player doesn't really tell the whole story. You keep ignoring that part.
Like I said, he's not a top 6 player anymore, he's way to slow. Neither Malkin or Crosby wanted someone that slow on their line while they are trying to run up the rush. That was more than clear. He slowed those lines down, that's why he got dropped to the 3rd line.
He also never really clicked on a 3rd pairing, the lack of foot speed was evident. You keep looking at goals and points, but his corsi has dropped like a rock. He use to be a 56% corsi player on the penguins. Last year was the 3rd or 4th straight year of decline down to 48%. For a guy who got 50+% Ozone starts. It was also the first year his corsi events for were lower than his corsi events against.
Those are all bad signs for an aging player.

Horny had his day on this team. But that was when the league was a lot slower and he didn't stick out as much being a bit younger.

There are simply truths to his game. He's not a great defender, in a defensive role in the bottom 6. He's not great moving through the neutral zone and he doesn't really have the ability to skate. You start adding it up and you realize how he was not fitting in.

I'm not judging any of this based on matheson at all. That's all purely on Horny. removing him was addition by subtraction just to start.

matheson is what he is. Now we can say we won't know what he'll be like on the penguins but truth is, you don't have to know that to judge this.
If they use this as the excuse to finally get rid of JJ than can you really look at it as a "bad move"
He can be no worse.
I mean if you ask any penugins fan what they want their defense to look like.
A.
Dumo
Pettersson
Johnson.
or
B.
Dumo
Pettersson
matheson

I'm pretty sure you get a 175% B response.

If he plays well, he's probably gone in the expansion draft given there isn't a lot there to choose form and a good defenseman would probably get picked up. So in that case the contract doesn't mean much.
And if he struggles, it's still better than JJ and Schultz. Who were both awful in their own end. matheson may turn the puck over, but at least he's not incompetent defending.
You can pull the puck out of his hands. Many teams do that. Look at Chara as he aged, they always had McAvoy move the puck when paired with him.

That eliminates the biggest issue with matheson . Especially since the whole penguins defense is designed to move the puck from the right point. AKA Letang, Marino, Schultz.

So yeah, moving a 5.3 million winger who is 34, was obviously declining, for a guy who is an upgrade in the defensive end isn't a bad move. Not nearly what you make it to be.


We can agree to disagree on Horny. im not say youre wrong but i do think he adds a lot and will be greatly missed next season... Aslo dont be shocked if your defense looks like this

Dumo
Math
JJ

Pettersson traded to get a 3c lol i hope not but its possible
25 sep à 12 h 18
#88
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Quoting: Capitalfail67
We can agree to disagree on Horny. im not say youre wrong but i do think he adds a lot and will be greatly missed next season... Aslo dont be shocked if your defense looks like this

Dumo
Math
JJ

Pettersson traded to get a 3c lol i hope not but its possible



look GMJR has made a lot of dumb moves in the past. But that's not going to be one of them.
He damn well knows he has to move JJ. Hell he knew last year, he tried, kessel botched it. My guess is they already have the deal to move him basically worked out. He is most likely the next trade they make.
There is simply no way he can justify returning him to the penguins next year. It simply isn't acceptable to the fan base anymore.
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25 sep à 12 h 35
#89
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Quoting: pinslack
Matheson was ranked the 6th worst contract in the league last year according to Dom Luszczyszyn. His Positive Value Probability: 8.3%

Ofc Hornqvist contract isnt pretty, but there's way less risk than Matheson' one.

More chance than not that I'll turn out as an other bad trade for Rutherford. It could actually be his most damaging cause there's lot of money involved.


Dom Luszczyszyn doesn't watch NHL games
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25 sep à 14 h 24
#90
mhockey91
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Quoting: Trickster
Matheson makes bad decisions and is turn over machine. He is hopeless.

Schultz and Daley were never hopeless.



Time will tell. But I think he’ll be better than advertised. If not, pens are doomed
25 sep à 18 h 35
#91
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Quoting: Trickster
Matheson makes bad decisions and is turn over machine. He is hopeless.

Schultz and Daley were never hopeless.


are you kidding me. Daley was never on the ice.
And Schultz has been a nightmare in his own end almost his whole career. do you forget they gave him 3 second shifts in stanley cup playoff runs because he was god awful.
His resigning was one of the biggest mistakes the penguins made to help cripple their playoff chance. They should have let him walk years ago.

If your answer is that the problem is he's a turn over machine, then there is a simple answer for that. Take the puck out his hands.
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25 sep à 19 h 56
#92
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as much as i dislike this trade. do to matheson contract length. getting rid of horny was a much do. his game is somewhere in the rearview mirror.
MY opinion on pens going all in for 2020 - 2021 seems to be gaining traction. 2021-2022 half the team will be traded at the deadline when the pens are out of playoffs by feb.. 8 forwards 3 defense would be end or 1 yr left to start the rebuild. matheson and a 3rd pick to seattle in the expansion draft . complete rebuild .
25 sep à 20 h 19
#93
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Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
Get 1 year of a team friendly contract for 6 years of a 2M overpay... lol

Don't understand why they did this without any retention or sending JJ back the other way... honestly just a poor trade for Pittsburgh.


sending jj and horny would have made this a perfect trade on pittsburgh side of things. even toss in POJ and a pick anything to get rid of JJ imo. too bad ruth couldnt manage that .. i hate to even think what he is going to have to give up to move JJ .. murray a 1st and 5 prospect most likely.. im sure it will be another ruth moment omg he didnt just make that trade..
26 sep à 11 h 32
#94
Hockey Super Genius
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Quoting: pharrow
are you kidding me. Daley was never on the ice.
And Schultz has been a nightmare in his own end almost his whole career. do you forget they gave him 3 second shifts in stanley cup playoff runs because he was god awful.
His resigning was one of the biggest mistakes the penguins made to help cripple their playoff chance. They should have let him walk years ago.

If your answer is that the problem is he's a turn over machine, then there is a simple answer for that. Take the puck out his hands.


I mean Daley was at such a low point he got traded for a 35yr old Rob Freaking Scudari on a bad contract.

Schultz almost quit hockey from getting Booed so much in EDM
26 sep à 11 h 34
#95
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Quoting: mhockey91
Yeah I get from a positional need it didn’t make any sense. They have so many LHD. I could see them moving petterson to address their 3C issue tbh. If Matheson is solid, then the net outcome of this trade could be okay. If he sucks. Then pens are doomed and the window is probably shut like you said. One thing forsure is it’s never a dull moment with GMJR...


I wonder if the Pens welcome Gonchar back now? BC GMJR said he left the door open for Gonch to return in another Role?
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26 sep à 12 h 39
#96
Oui non grille-pain
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Are people forgetting that Hornqvist is 33? He hasn't started to decline yet, but he will, especially considering that he's a physical player too.
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27 sep à 12 h 02
#97
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I'll mark this as a FAIR trade and explain why I'm optimistic as a Pens fan.

1 - There's no denying Matheson is a "bad" contract, but so was Hornqvist for the Pens at this point. I like Horny and know he's an effective hockey player. But the Pens want to get younger and faster. Horny is older, slower, expensive, becoming more and more injury prone, and doesn't fit the roster. He's not cracking the top-6 anymore in Pittsburgh, and they want to get faster/younger/cheaper in the bottom six.

2 - It's HARD to trade "bad" contracts without taking bad contracts back. The Pens were going to get a bottom-six forward or a bottom pair D for Horny. On a bad contract. And probably someone who had likewise lost his way on his team as well. If you think GMJR didn't "shop around" enough you're simply delusional.

3 - The LENGTH of Matheson's deal is worse than the $$. That's less concerning for the Pens. Their "window" is likely the three years left on Horny's contract anyway. In four years, they'll likely be rebuilding AND still need to ice a team. Thus, the worst feature of Matheson's contract isn't so bad to the Pens and their situation.

4 - The most befuddling thing about the deal is that Matheson is left-shooting. The Pens are loaded there. BUT, POJ isn't ready, Riikola is not favored in the top six, and JMFJ they'd rather NOT have. So, in that sense, Dumoulin, Peterson, Matheson is the left side. JMFJ may be bought out, may be added in a Murray trade, or may be "hidden" on the right side of the bottom pair. He's played RD before and sucks, but he sucks everywhere. IF they can't move JMFJ, I'd bet you'd see a lot of Matheson with Marino. And sometimes Pettersson. And sometimes Pettersson with Letang. In other words I expect a "top five" getting a lot of ice and not equal pairs. Assuming a game tonight, I predict you'd see Dumoulin-Letang, Matheson-Marino, Pettersson-JMFJ with JMFJ being "sheltered" five-on-five and PKing. Letang and Marino getting extra shifts five-on-five.

5 - With that in mind, the Pens feel they picked-up a POSSIBLE top-four D who is 26 and can retrieve pucks in their own zone and move the puck up ice with elite skating. PERIOD. Maybe they're wrong. But Reirden's work with Letang and Niskanen, plus the turn-arounds of Daley and Schultz, have taught the Pens to be fearless making these moves.

So I don't think GMJR is senile. I hope others can see the rationale.
 
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