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PIT cap crunch revised

Créé par: Kyle_Davidson
Équipe: 2020-21 Blackhawks de Chicago
Date de création initiale: 10 juill. 2020
Publié: 10 juill. 2020
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
34 200 000 $
14 200 000 $
24 200 000 $
34 000 000 $
CRÉÉANSCAP HIT
Overages, Cap
11 250 000 $
Offres hostiles
Le salaire annuel moyen (AAV) de l'offre hostile est calculé en divisant la valeur totale du contrat par: 1. La durée totale du contrat, ou 2. Cinq ans
JOUEURAAVCOMPENSATION
Jarry, Tristan4 200 000 $
Choix de 2e ronde en 2021
Transactions
1.
CHI
    2021 2nd round pick (CHI)
    PIT
    1. Jarry, Tristan
    Détails additionnels:
    Matched Offersheet.
    2.
    CHI
    1. Murray, Matt [Droits de RFA]
    Détails additionnels:
    Signed to a 1yr 4,200,000 AAV contract.

    Walks Murray to UFA, burns the first year of 20% Escrow, and gives him a chance to earn a big contract with Chicago (or another team) in UFA.


    Alternative events. Chicago signs Jarry to the offer sheet and PIT matches. Then Murray takes PIT to Arbitration and earns a contract outside of what PIT can pay. Murray becomes a UFA and Chicago signs him long term for free.
    PIT
      2021 2nd round pick (CHI)

      PIT obviously chooses to match of Jarry.
      3.
      CHI
      1. Choix de 3e ronde en 2021 (ARI)
      Enfoui
      Repêchage1e ronde2e ronde3e ronde4e ronde5e ronde6e ronde7e ronde
      2020
      Logo de CHI
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      2021
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      Logo de ARI
      Logo de CHI
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      2022
      Logo de CHI
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      TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
      2381 500 000 $70 852 764 $1 090 244 $5 132 500 $10 647 236 $
      Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
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      4 200 000 $4 200 000 $
      AG, AD
      UFA - 2
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      10 500 000 $10 500 000 $
      C
      NMC
      UFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
      AG, AD
      M-NTC
      UFA - 1
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      6 400 000 $6 400 000 $
      AG, AD
      UFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      925 000 $925 000 $ (Bonis de performance2 500 000 $$2M)
      C, AD
      RFA - 2
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      2 625 000 $2 625 000 $
      AD
      NMC
      UFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      863 333 $863 333 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
      AD, AG
      RFA - 1
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      4 000 000 $4 000 000 $
      C
      UFA - 2
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      870 000 $870 000 $ (Bonis de performance82 500 $$82K)
      C
      UFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      725 000 $725 000 $
      AG, AD
      UFA - 2
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      1 000 000 $1 000 000 $
      C
      UFA - 1
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      1 000 000 $1 000 000 $
      AD, C
      UFA - 2
      Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      5 538 462 $5 538 462 $
      DG
      NMC
      UFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      894 167 $894 167 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
      DD
      RFA - 2
      4 200 000 $4 200 000 $
      G
      UFA - 4
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      3 333 225 $3 333 225 $
      DG
      UFA - 2
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      925 000 $925 000 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
      DD
      RFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      1 000 000 $1 000 000 $
      G
      UFA - 2
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      863 333 $863 333 $
      DG
      UFA - 3
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      3 850 000 $3 850 000 $
      DD
      UFA - 2
      Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      6 875 000 $6 875 000 $
      DD
      NMC
      UFA - 4
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      3 900 000 $3 900 000 $
      C, AD
      UFA - 2
      Logo de Blackhawks de Chicago
      750 000 $750 000 $
      AG, AD, C
      UFA - 1
      Overages, Cap
      1 250 000 $1 250 000 $

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      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 42
      #1
      exo2769
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      The problem with this plan is that Murray is arbitration eligible. So despite being an RFA...if CHI were to offer sheet Jarry...and PIT Match...then Murray's arbitration would be too expensive for PIT.....so PIT would allow Murray to talk to other teams and then they're try to work out a minor deal just to get some kind of return vs letting him go UFA. Murray holds the cards.
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 43
      #2
      Démarrer sujet
      Kyle from Chicago
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      Quoting: exo2769
      The problem with this plan is that Murray is arbitration eligible. So despite being an RFA...if CHI were to offer sheet Jarry...and PIT Match...then Murray's arbitration would be too expensive for PIT.....so PIT would allow Murray to talk to other teams and then they're try to work out a minor deal just to get some kind of return vs letting him go UFA.


      If they can’t pay Murray in arbitration he becomes a UFA, that’s their problem IMO.

      Max I’d give for Murray is a second round pick, which PIT fans don’t agree with, in this senario... it seems they have no other choice.
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      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 44
      #3
      exo2769
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      Quoting: Stan_Bowman
      If they can’t pay Murray in arbitration he becomes a UFA, that’s their problem IMO.

      Max I’d give for Murray is a second round pick, which PIT fans don’t agree with, in this senario... it seems they have no other choice.


      BUT with Murray holding the cards...you need to pay him market rates which isn't $4.2M....so don't waste the 2nd rounder is ultimately what I'm getting at.
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 47
      #4
      All-Team Pylon
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      We just match the Jarry offer sheet and trade Murray to a team like Ottawa that can offer us more. Problem solved. Really not sure why fan bases think the Pens are so ham strung on the cap, we're in a better spot than most of the league and no GM is going to offer sheet Rutherford. Even if they do, we have options
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 48
      #5
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      Quoting: Stan_Bowman
      If they can’t pay Murray in arbitration he becomes a UFA, that’s their problem IMO.

      Max I’d give for Murray is a second round pick, which PIT fans don’t agree with, in this senario... it seems they have no other choice.


      Murray won't make it to arbitration so this isn't a legitimate concern
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 49
      #6
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      Quoting: exo2769
      The problem with this plan is that Murray is arbitration eligible. So despite being an RFA...if CHI were to offer sheet Jarry...and PIT Match...then Murray's arbitration would be too expensive for PIT.....so PIT would allow Murray to talk to other teams and then they're try to work out a minor deal just to get some kind of return vs letting him go UFA. Murray holds the cards.


      More than one team would be in the market for Murray, so he doesn't hold all the cards. Rutherford could make three phone calls and move him for more than a 2nd
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 51
      #7
      exo2769
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      Quoting: Marino4Norris
      Murray won't make it to arbitration so this isn't a legitimate concern


      Based on what? There were 42 arbitration filings last year alone. ALL 42 by the players themselves. It's stupid NOT to file. The player can always settle, but they'll at least file and go through the motions. The player literally has NOTHING to lose by filing and everything to gain.
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 52
      #8
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      Quoting: exo2769
      Based on what? There were 42 arbitration filings last year alone. ALL 42 by the players themselves. It's stupid NOT to file. The player can always settle, but they'll at least file and go through the motions. The player literally has NOTHING to lose by filing and everything to gain.


      Because he'll be traded or signed early in the offseason before he needs to file for arbitration............
      10 juill. 2020 à 14 h 58
      #9
      exo2769
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      Modifié 10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 6
      Quoting: Marino4Norris
      Because he'll be traded or signed early in the offseason before he needs to file for arbitration............


      Ok let's pretend this happens. Do you know what would NEED to happen for a team to accept Murray's contract in the offseason?
      A.) They'd need an agreement on a long term deal in place.
      B.) It would have to be a "fair market" contract because why else would Murray sign it?
      C.) It would have to be the best options for OTT, DET, or BUF because that's the market for goalies...that's it. CHI is not a good option, Crow is a FAR better option than sending assets away for a worse goalie. You're expecting these (3) teams to fight over Murray and give assets to PIT? OR maybe just sign Lehner a better goalie without losing any assets? Or Markstrom who's a UFA. OR maybe decide to sign/flip a guy like Holtby because these teams are rebuilding. All 3 of those options are better for those teams than to send assets to PIT.
      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 6
      #10
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      Quoting: exo2769
      Ok let's pretend this happens. Do you know what would NEED to happen for a team to accept Murray's contract in the offseason?
      A.) They'd need an agreement on a long term deal in place.
      B.) It would have to be a "fair market" contract because why else would Murray sign it?
      C.) OTT, DET, and BUF are your (3) options...that's it. CHI is not a good option. You're expecting these (3) teams to fight over Murray and give assets to PIT? OR maybe just sign Lehner a better goalie without losing any assets? Or Markstrom who's a UFA. OR maybe decide to sign/flip a guy like Holtby because these teams are rebuilding. All 3 of those options are better for those teams than to send assets to PIT.


      Clearly Chicago is a good option since a Chicago fan traded for him in this ACGM ? I just don't understand your logic whatsoever, you list off three other teams that need a goalie and then advocate that Murray will somehow make it to arbitration, when there are zero starting goalies that I can think of who used it as anything other than leverage in contract negotiations and actually had to make it to a hearing. By all accounts Murray isn't asking for a crazy amount, and if Jarry outplays him in the playoffs he'll just be moved to the highest bidder as soon as the season is over - probably to one of the teams you mentioned. If the Pens want, they can also sign both cheap for a year, they have the cap space even if it will hurt the roster elsewhere. To say a well run franchise like Pittsburgh will get bent over by an offer sheet and be forced to give away a goalie because of arbitration (?) is to ignore all prior examples of goalie competitions ending with a fair value trade and prior year arbitration results.
      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 16
      #11
      exo2769
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      Modifié 10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 24
      Quoting: Marino4Norris
      Clearly Chicago is a good option since a Chicago fan traded for him in this ACGM ? I just don't understand your logic whatsoever, you list off three other teams that need a goalie and then advocate that Murray will somehow make it to arbitration, when there are zero starting goalies that I can think of who used it as anything other than leverage in contract negotiations and actually had to make it to a hearing. By all accounts Murray isn't asking for a crazy amount, and if Jarry outplays him in the playoffs he'll just be moved to the highest bidder as soon as the season is over - probably to one of the teams you mentioned. If the Pens want, they can also sign both cheap for a year, they have the cap space even if it will hurt the roster elsewhere. To say a well run franchise like Pittsburgh will get bent over by an offer sheet and be forced to give away a goalie because of arbitration (?) is to ignore all prior examples of goalie competitions ending with a fair value trade and prior year arbitration results.


      Because other teams aren't looking to do PIT favors. THAT'S what you're asking them to do. You asking each of them to send PIT assets despite that not being their best option. That's what doesn't make sense.

      I want CHI fans to stop making these trades. Crow is a FAR FAR FAR better option for CHI in the short term. Don't lose ANY picks....get a better goalie. That's asset management.

      I can't speak for what Murray's said to JR. If they have a handshake...fine I guess. I just have a hard time seeing Murray outplay Flower (for example) and then Flower gets a 3 year $7M deal. This alone should tell you he should be getting more than $7M. I have a hard time see Murray accepting $4-$5M....when Koskinen got $4.5M for doing literally nothing....when Binnington got $4.4 after only 32 NHL games for his career....Elvis played 33 games for his career and ZERO cup and got $4M. Murray's contributions for BOTH PIT's cups were HUGE.

      Anyone can sign any deal I guess. What I don't understand is why you think Murray shouldn't get fair value. Why do you want to undercut his contributions so hard. THAT's what an arbitrator is going to look at. NOT what Capfriendly people think. They'll look at comparable contracts and accomplishments.
      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 25
      #12
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      Quoting: exo2769
      Because other teams aren't looking to do PIT favors. THAT'S what you're asking them to do. You asking each of them to send PIT assets despite that not being their best option. That's what doesn't make sense.

      I want CHI fans to stop making these trades. Crow is a FAR FAR FAR better option for CHI in the short term. Don't lose ANY picks....get a better goalie. That's asset management.

      I can't speak for what Murray's said to JR. If they have a handshake...fine I guess. I just have a hard time seeing Murray outplay Flower (for example) and then Flower gets a 3 year $7M deal. This alone should tell you he should be getting more than $7M. I have a hard time see Murray accepting $4-$5M....when Koskinen got $4.5M for doing literally nothing....when Binnington got $4.4 after only 32 NHL games for his career....Elvis played 33 games for his career and ZERO cup and got $4M. Murray's contributions for BOTH PIT's cups were HUGE.

      Anyone can sign any deal I guess. What I don't understand is why you think Murray shouldn't get fair value. Why do you want to undercut his contributions so hard. THAT's what an arbitrator is going to look at. NOT what Capfriendly people think. They'll look at comparable contracts and accomplishments.


      Murray is coming off a .899SV% season, he won't make that kind of money on a long term deal or from arbitration, and again there's no incentive for the Pens to let him get to arbitration. And since when is trading fair value for a goalie doing a team with said goalie a favor? Some mental gymnastics to think that Murray isn't as good of an option for those teams as others AND that he'll make 7+ (which five goalies in the entire league make). So he's not a great goalie, but he should get paid like a top five one ??
      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 39
      #13
      exo2769
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      Quoting: Marino4Norris
      Murray is coming off a .899SV% season, he won't make that kind of money on a long term deal or from arbitration, and again there's no incentive for the Pens to let him get to arbitration. And since when is trading fair value for a goalie doing a team with said goalie a favor? Some mental gymnastics to think that Murray isn't as good of an option for those teams as others AND that he'll make 7+ (which five goalies in the entire league make). So he's not a great goalie, but he should get paid like a top five one ??


      Let's break this down...

      There's no incentive for the Pens to let him go to arbitration. Reply - This isn't how arbitration works. It's not a team ONLY choice. The players file 99.9% of the time because they have nothing to lose by filing. If they don't file, THEN they lost leverage.

      And since when is trading fair value for a goalie doing a team with said goalie a favor? Reply - It's a favor when it's NOT your best option. Getting Lehner without losing Assets is better. It's ECON 101...supply/demand. It's why Lehner was forced into a 1 year deal last year. No one wanted a goalie.

      but he should get paid like a top five one ?? Reply $7M would make him the 8th highest paid and Yes, 2 cups is a HUGE accomplishment. As a Hawks fan, I'm against the trade NOT because he's terrible. He's pretty dang good. Crows better and we keep our assets. I'm against the trade because it completely F's our entire cap situation. We don't have the cap space for him and we're in a better position than half the league.

      Can Murray get traded...he sure can, but remember the last time PIT fans were ADAMANT their goalie was going to get them a 1st rounder in the market....but then found out that due to cap reasons instead of getting a 1st rounder...they actually needed to lose a 2nd rounder just to shed that goalie??? Yeah that was MAF to Vegas. That's what cap problems do.
      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 46
      #14
      Banni
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      Quoting: Marino4Norris
      Murray is coming off a .899SV% season, he won't make that kind of money on a long term deal or from arbitration, and again there's no incentive for the Pens to let him get to arbitration. And since when is trading fair value for a goalie doing a team with said goalie a favor? Some mental gymnastics to think that Murray isn't as good of an option for those teams as others AND that he'll make 7+ (which five goalies in the entire league make). So he's not a great goalie, but he should get paid like a top five one ??


      this is the same fan base that has trashed Murray and said he's awful and Crow is better etc..... but yet they keep trying to trade for him and them get frustrated and angry and throw fits when people are like....no he's worth more than your 3rd round pick.

      While all claiming Saad is worth 8 1st round picks and the moon.

      Murray isn't signing a 1 year deal that is absurd to begin with. Jarry will sign a 1 year prove it deal. And the penguins will choose between the two at the end of next season as per their deal with Seattle.
      Which has probably already been worked out. Considering the whole 6 weeks of off season till next seasons starts in December.
      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 49
      #15
      Banni
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      Quoting: exo2769
      Let's break this down...

      There's no incentive for the Pens to let him go to arbitration. Reply - This isn't how arbitration works. It's not a team ONLY choice. The players file 99.9% of the time because they have nothing to lose by filing. If they don't file, THEN they lost leverage.

      And since when is trading fair value for a goalie doing a team with said goalie a favor? Reply - It's a favor when it's NOT your best option. Getting Lehner without losing Assets is better. It's ECON 101...supply/demand. It's why Lehner was forced into a 1 year deal last year. No one wanted a goalie.

      but he should get paid like a top five one ?? Reply $7M would make him the 8th highest paid and Yes, 2 cups is a HUGE accomplishment. As a Hawks fan, I'm against the trade NOT because he's terrible. He's pretty dang good. Crows better and we keep our assets. I'm against the trade because it completely F's our entire cap situation. We don't have the cap space for him and we're in a better position than half the league.

      Can Murray get traded...he sure can, but remember the last time PIT fans were ADAMANT their goalie was going to get them a 1st rounder in the market....but then found out that due to cap reasons instead of getting a 1st rounder...they actually needed to lose a 2nd rounder just to shed that goalie??? Yeah that was MAF to Vegas. That's what cap problems do.


      players do have something to lose in arbitration. It's a myth they don't. Just about every player who has gone through arbitration has found a new team within like 1 year.
      It destroys their relationship with the team. Which is why players just like the club don't want to go through with it. Unless there is already bad blood there. Of which there is not.
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      10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 52
      #16
      exo2769
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      Modifié 10 juill. 2020 à 15 h 59
      Quoting: pharrow
      players do have something to lose in arbitration. It's a myth they don't. Just about every player who has gone through arbitration has found a new team within like 1 year.
      It destroys their relationship with the team. Which is why players just like the club don't want to go through with it. Unless there is already bad blood there. Of which there is not.


      I agree that actual proceedings don't occur often. When you go to arbitration both parties...TEAM and PLAYER will submit their findings/cases/examples/accomplishments to the arbitrator...just like evidence in a court case. The "evidence" is 100% transparent. Reviewed by both sides. Then the deal usually gets made because all side are indeed smart people. They'll know who won and who didn't even before it happens.

      BUT there is a reason that 99.9% of arbitration filings are done by the player and NOT the team. The players need to force the team's hand to give them a reasonable deal.

      ***EDIT*** unless your GM is Chiarelli...then just take the milions he's offering because he's likely overpaying you.
      10 juill. 2020 à 18 h 26
      #17
      Banni
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      Quoting: exo2769
      I agree that actual proceedings don't occur often. When you go to arbitration both parties...TEAM and PLAYER will submit their findings/cases/examples/accomplishments to the arbitrator...just like evidence in a court case. The "evidence" is 100% transparent. Reviewed by both sides. Then the deal usually gets made because all side are indeed smart people. They'll know who won and who didn't even before it happens.

      BUT there is a reason that 99.9% of arbitration filings are done by the player and NOT the team. The players need to force the team's hand to give them a reasonable deal.

      ***EDIT*** unless your GM is Chiarelli...then just take the milions he's offering because he's likely overpaying you.


      there is a reason most player don't ever make it to a hearing. They realize they don't want to be there either. Like I said, it ruins things between the player and the team. They very much have something to lose in that. As most players tend to be happy with their team. What they gain in filing is not dragging it out and getting it over with. It's really no great leverage. As players realize that going to that hearing will be one of the last things they do for their team and they will be packing their bags shortly. If they are offered a contract, the team is happy enough with them to keep them in the loop, than that is a better situation than being traded somewhere where they may fall out of favor. Especially if they are not a star player. But both sides realize they have just as much to gain as they have to lose which is why players rarely go there.
      10 juill. 2020 à 18 h 49
      #18
      exo2769
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      Quoting: pharrow
      there is a reason most player don't ever make it to a hearing. They realize they don't want to be there either. Like I said, it ruins things between the player and the team. They very much have something to lose in that. As most players tend to be happy with their team. What they gain in filing is not dragging it out and getting it over with. It's really no great leverage. As players realize that going to that hearing will be one of the last things they do for their team and they will be packing their bags shortly. If they are offered a contract, the team is happy enough with them to keep them in the loop, than that is a better situation than being traded somewhere where they may fall out of favor. Especially if they are not a star player. But both sides realize they have just as much to gain as they have to lose which is why players rarely go there.


      At this point...I simply disagree with you. Players aren't afraid like you're making them out to be. Heck, most of them say "I'll leave that to my agent" and move on. I also disagree that the evidence supports your theory. I think 40+ players signing for arbitration each of the past 2 years doesn't make 80 people scared of their teams or how they'll look. (This will grow too with the CBA being extended.) It's 80 people looking to get fair value. Having a court behind them makes the RFA status a little less worrisome. If there CAN'T be an agreement then the player has a backstop in free agency.
      10 juill. 2020 à 18 h 59
      #19
      Banni
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      Quoting: exo2769
      At this point...I simply disagree with you. Players aren't afraid like you're making them out to be. Heck, most of them say "I'll leave that to my agent" and move on. I also disagree that the evidence supports your theory. I think 40+ players signing for arbitration each of the past 2 years doesn't make 80 people scared of their teams or how they'll look. (This will grow too with the CBA being extended.) It's 80 people looking to get fair value. Having a court behind them makes the RFA status a little less worrisome. If there CAN'T be an agreement then the player has a backstop in free agency.


      every player account of going to a hearing is the same.
      The team ripped me to pieces.....the relationship was ruined......I was traded soon after.

      Players really don't want to go down that path as much as you think they do. Especially if they are comfortable and know they have edged out a role for themselves on a team. Their new team....maybe not so much. Especially when they are on short term deals.
      In almost every case it's better that player stay put. Both financially and career wise. As knowing the coaching staff likes you and wants you to be on the team goes a long way to getting more than 1 year deals. Having a stable income and earning enough to retire. Most guys hitting arbitration are fringe guys. They could be something, they could go bust. Rarely is it a very good player who hits it.
      Most of those 80 players file for arbitration as a procedural issue. Not because they want to go there.
      The vast majority of players do not want to ruin their relationship with a team they worked hard to edge out a role in. As they realize they can be right back to square one with another team.
      It takes one run of bad luck after being traded to derail them and bring them back to reality.
      So while players are not "scared" to file for arbitration, none of them really want to be there. And that shows in the fact that very few players actually make it to a trial.
       
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