Forums/Armchair-GM

Eichel for Matthews

Créé par: MATTHEWS_COME_HOME
Date de création initiale: mai 28, 2020
Publié: 28 mai à 14 h 47
Équipe: 2019-20 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Transactions
TOR
  1. Eichel, Jack
  2. Jokiharju, Henri
BUF
  1. Matthews, Auston
  2. Sandin, Rasmus
Rachats de contrats
  • Mikhail Grabovski: 0 $
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Phil Kessel: 1 200 000 $ (15%)
  • Robin Lehner: 1 100 000 $ (22%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2020
TOR
TOR
VGK
VGK
TOR
CAR
COL
SJS
STL
WPG
2021
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2781 500 000 $94 668 699 $0 $425 000 $-13 168 699 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
TOR
Johnsson, Andreas
3 400 000 $
AG
UFA - 4
TOR
Tavares, John
11 000 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 6
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
10 893 000 $
AD
UFA - 6
TOR
Hyman, Zach
2 250 000 $
AG, AD
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
3 500 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 4
TOR
Nylander, William
6 962 366 $
AD, AG
UFA - 5
TOR
Clifford, Kyle
800 000 $
AG
UFA - 1
TOR
Spezza, Jason
700 000 $
C, AD
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Horton, Nathan
5 300 000 $
AD
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
925 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
TOR
Gauthier, Frédérik
675 000 $
C
RFA - 1
TOR
Clarkson, David
5 250 000 $
AD
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Engvall, Pierre
925 000 $
AG, C
RFA - 1
BUF
Eichel, Jack
10 000 000 $
C
UFA - 7
TOR
Kapanen, Kasperi
3 200 000 $
AD
RFA - 3
TOR
Malgin, Denis
750 000 $
AD, C
RFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
5 000 000 $
DG
UFA - 3
TOR
Ceci, Cody
4 500 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
TOR
Andersen, Frederik
5 000 000 $
G
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Muzzin, Jake
4 000 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
TOR
Barrie, Tyson
2 750 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
TOR
Campbell, Jack
675 000 $
G
UFA - 1
TOR
Dermott, Travis
863 333 $
DG
RFA - 1
TOR
Holl, Justin
675 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
TOR
Rosén, Calle
750 000 $
DG
UFA - 2
TOR
Marincin, Martin
700 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
BUF
Jokiharju, Henri
925 000 $
DD
RFA - 2

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28 mai à 15 h 20
#26
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
Thats a relevant stat.


Kind of matters when measuring players against each other. Sandin had a higher scoring rate for points than Jokiharju did.
28 mai à 15 h 22
#27
Rejoint: mai 2020
Messages: 55
Mentions "j'aime": 26
Trading a generational goal scorer is never a great idea cool
28 mai à 15 h 27
#28
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: Byrr
Kind of matters when measuring players against each other. Sandin had a higher scoring rate for points than Jokiharju did.


only if his EXP. GF and Exp. Goal share is up their too, which it is not. Similar and favors Jokiharju respectively. This isnt a great visual for Dmen but it has the numbers youre referencing: https://public.tableau.com/shared/YHBNYP5CF?:display_count=y&:origin=viz_share_link&:embed=y
28 mai à 15 h 28
#29
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
only if his EXP. GF and Exp. Goal share is up their too, which it is not. Similar and favors Jokiharju respectively. This isnt a great visual for Dmen but it has the numbers youre referencing: https://public.tableau.com/shared/YHBNYP5CF?:display_count=y&:origin=viz_share_link&:embed=y


Even what you linked ranks Sandin higher with a SKATR score of 81 to Jokis 17. According to your advanced stats page its not even close.
28 mai à 15 h 30
#30
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: Byrr
Even what you linked ranks Sandin higher with a SKATR score of 81 to Jokis 17. According to your advanced stats page its not even close.


His shooting percentage was also in the 74 percentile with one goal.
28 mai à 15 h 31
#31
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
His shooting percentage was also in the 74 percentile with one goal.


Somehow i dont think shooting percentage for a defenseman makes up that massive 64 point difference in their total scores. According to your stat page, Sandin is better than Dahlin. We need to entirely re-frame this conversation.

What are the Sabres going to add to Eichel and Dahlin to get Matthews and Sandin? We'll help you out with that Reinhart problem.
28 mai à 15 h 31
#32
Barilko14
Rejoint: mai 2015
Messages: 1,250
Mentions "j'aime": 478
Quoting: JaredOfLondon
so, let me put it this way. If Matthews magically had Eichel's contract, do you think that extra 1.6 million of cap space would make enough of a difference in 4 years time that it would compensate for Matthews being a better player for 4 years?


What I'm getting at though is the term more so then the cap hit. IMO the extra 2 years helps extend the window.

The Joki/Sandin aspect of this trade plays in as well. Getting a 21 yo RHD that can handle playing with Rielly today (they threw him into the deep-end in Buff this year) solves the one hole the Leafs have been trying the fill for what seems like forever. And the spot could be filled for the next 10 years.

With the Leafs able to lock up Dermott, that keeps the LHD locked in for the foreseeable future as well.

I probably don't make a straight Eichel for Matthews swap, but the one proposed here, I pull the trigger.
28 mai à 15 h 34
#33
Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 4,058
Mentions "j'aime": 1,087
Quoting: Barilko14
What I'm getting at though is the term more so then the cap hit. IMO the extra 2 years helps extend the window.

The Joki/Sandin aspect of this trade plays in as well. Getting a 21 yo RHD that can handle playing with Rielly today (they threw him into the deep-end in Buff this year) solves the one hole the Leafs have been trying the fill for what seems like forever. And the spot could be filled for the next 10 years.

With the Leafs able to lock up Dermott, that keeps the LHD locked in for the foreseeable future as well.

I probably don't make a straight Eichel for Matthews swap, but the one proposed here, I pull the trigger.


i mean you could trade them all for 1st and extend the window even longer, but you still need to try and give the team the best chance to win the cup now. I'll take better players for 4 years and try to win the cup now than have a lesser shot at winning the cup now with a maybe better shot in years 5 or 6.
28 mai à 15 h 39
#34
NoMansonMurphyDumba
Rejoint: jan 2020
Messages: 3,773
Mentions "j'aime": 1,144
Quoting: Shibbal18
Based on what, 1G and a -7 on a better team against weaker opposition


1. points aren't everything
2. Sandin has 1 goal and how many did Jokiharju have in his first season? 0 in more games. Also had a -7
3. Sandin and Jokiharju have been even defensively in their rookie years.
4. If anything their equal right now. We will probably have to wait a few years to see who.
28 mai à 15 h 39
#35
Barilko14
Rejoint: mai 2015
Messages: 1,250
Mentions "j'aime": 478
Quoting: JaredOfLondon
i mean you could trade them all for 1st and extend the window even longer, but you still need to try and give the team the best chance to win the cup now. I'll take better players for 4 years and try to win the cup now than have a lesser shot at winning the cup now with a maybe better shot in years 5 or 6.


You think Matthews is quite a bit better then Eichel, I think he's a bit better. Doubtful either of us are going to convince the other to change their view, so this is probably a good end point for the discussion.
28 mai à 15 h 40
#36
No regretzkys
Rejoint: aoû 2019
Messages: 412
Mentions "j'aime": 176
Quoting: Boomer125
Why?


Quoting: JaredOfLondon
with a user name like that, how could this POSSIBLY be anything but a legit post that is in no way a troll attempt at jacking leafs fans up?


Quoting: firezfurx
I like Sandin....


Maybe if the Sabres added Miller+2 2nds in exchange for Johnsson+Dermott


Quoting: Shibbal18
Blatantly wrong


Matthews > Eichel
28 mai à 15 h 45
#37
Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 4,058
Mentions "j'aime": 1,087
Quoting: Barilko14
You think Matthews is quite a bit better then Eichel, I think he's a bit better. Doubtful either of us are going to convince the other to change their view, so this is probably a good end point for the discussion.


he's a significantly better goal scorer, better play maker, better defensively . He's a 'little' better than him in so many ways (and a lot better in one) that it adds up to more than a 'bit'. Especially the goal scoring. Goal scoring is the most important thing in the game and Matthews is a measure better at it than Eichel at bare minimum.
28 mai à 15 h 55
#38
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: Byrr
Somehow i dont think shooting percentage for a defenseman makes up that massive 64 point difference in their total scores. According to your stat page, Sandin is better than Dahlin. We need to entirely re-frame this conversation.

What are the Sabres going to add to Eichel and Dahlin to get Matthews and Sandin? We'll help you out with that Reinhart problem.


No we dont need to reframe you just need to not ignore what i said. I led off with that isnt good for dmen. As well as Sandin was in the 74 percentile for shooting% and 99th percentile for shooting assists, clearly his numbers are wonky and will go down, not up, as Skatr score is "using rates per 60 minutes to adjust for playing time" and with his exp. stats at par or lower than Jokiharju, with the same amount of ice time Jokiharju clearly will exceed Sandin. This is why advanced stats is just looking at pretty colors to determine whos better. You probably dint even know what made up the Skatr score. Not only that insinuating that Reinhart makes up the difference is pathetic
28 mai à 16 h 07
#39
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
No we dont need to reframe you just need to not ignore what i said. I led off with that isnt good for dmen. As well as Sandin was in the 74 percentile for shooting% and 99th percentile for shooting assists, clearly his numbers are wonky and will go down, not up, as Skatr score is "using rates per 60 minutes to adjust for playing time" and with his exp. stats at par or lower than Jokiharju, with the same amount of ice time Jokiharju clearly will exceed Sandin. This is why advanced stats is just looking at pretty colors to determine whos better. You probably dint even know what made up the Skatr score. Not only that insinuating that Reinhart makes up the difference is pathetic


Look, you can choose to view the stats however you want but its just that, a personal view filled with ignorance, bias and errors. The total score is the sites breakdown of the stats and according to the unbiased view of the site(which you provided btw), Sandin is much better than Jokiharju. Its pretty definitive.
firezfurx a aimé ceci.
28 mai à 16 h 08
#40
Dubas isnt a genius
Rejoint: avr 2020
Messages: 2,799
Mentions "j'aime": 675
Quoting: Shibbal18
No we dont need to reframe you just need to not ignore what i said. I led off with that isnt good for dmen. As well as Sandin was in the 74 percentile for shooting% and 99th percentile for shooting assists, clearly his numbers are wonky and will go down, not up, as Skatr score is "using rates per 60 minutes to adjust for playing time" and with his exp. stats at par or lower than Jokiharju, with the same amount of ice time Jokiharju clearly will exceed Sandin. This is why advanced stats is just looking at pretty colors to determine whos better. You probably dint even know what made up the Skatr score. Not only that insinuating that Reinhart makes up the difference is pathetic


Sandin just turned 20. He is also very sound defensively (xGa) and a good puck mover. I'd say him and Joker are pretty equal now but Sandin definitley has a higher ceiling.
28 mai à 16 h 21
#41
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: Byrr
Look, you can choose to view the stats however you want but its just that, a personal view filled with ignorance, bias and errors. The total score is the sites breakdown of the stats and according to the unbiased view of the site(which you provided btw), Sandin is much better than Jokiharju. Its pretty definitive.


No the "total score" is not the site breakdown of the stats,
restricting focus to the 5v5 hockey game
adjusting for score and venue effects
using rates per 60 minutes to adjust for playing time
only looking at players with 100+ minutes ice time at 5v5
providing the context surrounding the player’s deployment
looking beyond highly variable goals and points to more stable underlying results
selecting a representative cross-section of useful hockey statistics
avoiding the use of 5-man statistics to describe a single player (eg +/-, CF%, xGF%)
ranking players at their position (SKATR uses percentiles)
When you look at any SKATR chart, you are looking at percentile rankings — not the raw statistic. The percentiles are based on 5v5 “per 60” statistics — not raw counts. The labels are percentiles, the colours are based on percentiles, and even the lengths of the bars are based on the percentiles.
So when a player has sheltered stats we have to rely on the EXP. stats to provide context
28 mai à 16 h 23
#42
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 16,995
Mentions "j'aime": 5,126
Quoting: Shibbal18
Blatantly wrong


Literally every Leaf fan will disagree and every Sabres fan would agree with you. For arguments sake, if there was a ever a trade between these two teams including Matthews or Eichel, it would just be that. End of debate, no one adds it would be in a situation were both want trades for whatever reason. 1 for 1 no one gets anything else.
Shibbal18 a aimé ceci.
28 mai à 16 h 28
#43
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: firezfurx
Sandin just turned 20. He is also very sound defensively (xGa) and a good puck mover. I'd say him and Joker are pretty equal now but Sandin definitley has a higher ceiling.


Jokiharju is only 9 months older than him
28 mai à 16 h 34
#44
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
No the "total score" is not the site breakdown of the stats,
restricting focus to the 5v5 hockey game
adjusting for score and venue effects
using rates per 60 minutes to adjust for playing time
only looking at players with 100+ minutes ice time at 5v5
providing the context surrounding the player’s deployment
looking beyond highly variable goals and points to more stable underlying results
selecting a representative cross-section of useful hockey statistics
avoiding the use of 5-man statistics to describe a single player (eg +/-, CF%, xGF%)
ranking players at their position (SKATR uses percentiles)
When you look at any SKATR chart, you are looking at percentile rankings — not the raw statistic. The percentiles are based on 5v5 “per 60” statistics — not raw counts. The labels are percentiles, the colours are based on percentiles, and even the lengths of the bars are based on the percentiles.
So when a player has sheltered stats we have to rely on the EXP. stats to provide context


'Ranking players at their position (SKATR uses percentiles)'

And so the unbiased look puts Sandin is in the 81st percentile while Jokiharju is in the lowly 17th. You can switch them up all you want but behind every door, A B and C, Sandin is considered better than Joki on the advanced stat site you listed.
firezfurx a aimé ceci.
28 mai à 16 h 47
#45
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 16,995
Mentions "j'aime": 5,126
For the Leaf fans arguing Sandin is better than Jokiharju, I agree I think he's going to be better for sure, I don't think its fair to treat Jokiharju as a huge downgrade. Both are highly touted young defenceman. I think the upside for Sandin is immense but I think Jokiharju could easily turn into a very good top 4 defender. I will say though, thinking Matthews is worth Eichel and Jokiharju is equally as ridiculous as any Sabre fan thinking Eichel is worth Matthews and Sandin. This is just homer bias on both sides. Of all the young franchise centres in the League Eichel and Matthews are probably the two closest in value. Personally I'd take Matthews, he's bigger and the better goal scorer but if I had to move Matthews, if I could get Eichel, I am completely fine with it. If any Sabre fan thinks they are getting a downgrade from Eichel to Matthews, you need to check your bias.
28 mai à 16 h 50
#46
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: Byrr
'Ranking players at their position (SKATR uses percentiles)'

And so the unbiased look puts Sandin is in the 81st percentile while Jokiharju is in the lowly 17th. You can switch them up all you want but behind every door, A B and C, Sandin is considered better than Joki on the advanced stat site you listed.


No you just have no idea how to read that, lists 10 categories but you focus on the one that makes you look good, because the rest are clearly inflated and you know they will fall off, thats why you keep fronting this charade
28 mai à 16 h 50
#47
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
No you just have no idea how to read that, lists 10 categories but you focus on the one that makes you look good, because the rest are clearly inflated and you know they will fall off, thats why you keep fronting this charade


Most of them make Sandin look good, thats why hes ranked so much higher than Jokiharju. My boy is leading in 12 of the 15 categories(and tied in a 13th).
28 mai à 16 h 53
#48
Shibbal18
Rejoint: jan 2016
Messages: 12,053
Mentions "j'aime": 3,021
Quoting: Byrr
Most of them make Sandin look good, thats why hes ranked so much higher than Jokiharju.


I cant tell if youre actually dumb and illiterate or if your trolling. If its the latter, good job, you kept me going to this point
28 mai à 16 h 55
#49
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 829
Mentions "j'aime": 295
Quoting: Shibbal18
I cant tell if youre actually dumb and illiterate or if your trolling. If its the latter, good job, you kept me going to this point


Im sorry that you cant read that graph.

Ok, this has been fun. Sorry to yank your chain but you bit pretty hard in a troll thread like this.
 
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