Wow. Has Dumba fallen so badly in your eyes? Thomas is a good player don't get me wrong but that price you are paying IMO should get you an elite center. I think you are overpaying here like crazy.

Robert Thomas is very underated and only 20 years old. Dumba has had his struggles as of late, defensively specifically. Injuries probably played a factor as well, however I believe Thomas is a legit future 1C for the Blues and worse case scenario a first line winger.

Remove your first and it's more fair

Hmm I think he has great instincts but I'm not sure he has the fire power of a true top #1. I guess #1 on different teams means different things but what I mean is Stanley cup winning #1. I think he'll slot way better as a solid #2 on a cup contender type team.

As for Dumba, he had a rough season no doubt. I'm surprised people are willing to "give up on him" that easily though. He was injured and played a huge factor in his season. I'm almost certain he'll be back to Dumba of old by 20-21 if he's continues to rehab properly and puts the work in.

Whichever way you look at it, the 11th overall pick, Stalock and Dumba should be the building blocks in a trade to an absolute stud center. Maybe its just that I don't see Thomas as highly you do. I'm pretty sure just speaking value wise, the 11th p[ck isn't that far in value to Thomas himself IMO. The 11th pick in quite possibly the most hyped about draft in years by the way. I guarantee a stud is gonna fall to Minny with the 11th. They should just keep pick.

@F50marco I'm not ready to give up on Dumba, but given our dire need for a center I don't really see what other asset we can use besides Brodin to get a potential 1C. This is probably a really dumb trade for the Wild but Thomas has flashed legitimate potential and was on pace for 52 points as a 20 year old. I know you're a Montreal fan, so to put it into context Suzuki was on pace for 47 points at the same age averaging over a minute more per game. It would no doubt take a king's ransom to get Suzuki, and I think the same could be said for Thomas. That's why I added so much value here.

I think Thomas retires a Blue. Dumba is probably better than Faulk, but not enough to make a big difference and Thomas is probably better than who’ll be available at 11 (unless Perfetti or Rossi drops.)

I legitimately was considering to say " hey how about Suzuki for that package?" haha

I dunno, I feel Dumba is a much better player than he is thought of lately. recency bias is hitting hard right now for him. He'll rebound and be what he once was again. That 11th pick I guarantee is gonna have a good player. Someone always takes someone higher than expected and someone who everyone was absolutely astonished fell, will fall into your laps. Not Rossi, Byfield or anyone like that but maybe someone like Perfetti or Lundell.

IMHO Lundell/Perfetti 11OV, Dumba, Stalock > Thomas and Allen.

He is, it was all in his head this season. Dumba's problem is that he needs to be generating offense in order to be good on defense, otherwise he forces plays to score and it ends up making him look bad. When he's scoring he doesn't feel the need to force plays and the defense comes naturally. When he played like that two seasons ago he deserved every minute he got on our top pairing. He's definitely our most talented defenseman so it would be a shame to sell low (like I have here).

I'm just not sure time is on our side with Kaprizov coming and Fiala emerging as a star. We need that center to get the best out of these two and at least try to make a run while they're in their primes.

The Blues are not trading Thomas to MInnesota. Obviously.

Hot take, they are getting an elite center back

Nice to see someone say Dumba isn't a bad player. People on here act like his injury is affecting him physically when if you watch him play, it's obvious he's overthinking things. He'll figure it out and be fine, maybe the current break is enough to help him clear his head.

Ideally I'd love to keep Suter/Spurgeon, Brodin/Dumba as the top 4 but with Soucy looking like a player and Menell and Addison in the system, someone has to go eventually.

Thomas can be both a really good player and not be elite. I don't think its a hot take to say he's really good but not elite. Elite is Elias Pettersson. Nick Suzuki put up similar numbers to Thomas and I wouldn't call him elite either. That's no disrespect to either player but you need to leave a ceiling name tag like "Elite" for those who truly are. Thomas IMO isn't.

Plus its not like I'm trying to downplay Thomas here. Im simply pointing out that Minny's 1st may end up giving them a player just as good Thomas. Potentially even better. Throw Dumba on top of that and I think Minny is overpaying needlessly. They could potentially get what they are looking for just by being patient. Once again, IMO of course.

I concur

That was exactly my thought too.

They already have that center...Joel Ericksson Ek!

I will say this - i think a team can win the Cup without a true #1 center...if they have 3 - #2 centers instead. Ek is one (imo), Thomas or Cerelli (or someone else) could be another...and IF Kovanhov continues along his current trajectory, he might be the 3rd...

Save the elite tag it for people who truly deserve it- like Robert Thomas! Lol, but seriously, I think he's going to be that good, and I think you're going to agree in a few years. And that's why, overpay or not on the trade, it's going to cost more than that to get him from the blues.

Look, I don't expect people who don't watch the Blues or haven't followed this kid's development for a few years to think he's an incredibly special or elite player, but even if you don't or Minnesota doesn't- the Blues do, he was centering our second line when the pause happened at twenty years old. That doesn't just happen on a team that also has O'Reilly, Schenn and Bozak and was pretty comfortably first in the west all season. And, fair or not, it'll cost a lot more than Dumba and a first to get him, especially when we've already got two RHD under contract for high money.

And yeah, obviously, if everyone thought he was elite, it wouldn't be a hot take. Maybe the points aren't showing it but Thomas's advanced stats have been glowing for two years now (Suzuki, on the other hand, has been good defensively while being abysmal offensively according to Evolving-Hockey's analytics). While guys like Petterson and Matthews may have been elite out the gate, some guys take a bit to get there from a production standpoint. I think we can all agree that Mark Stone, Brad Marchand, and Nathan MacKinnon are elite talents but they didn't have that breakthrough for many years after their career started. No reason to trade a guy who is already good enough to center our second line and has a ton more to give.

So, yes, I believe Minnesota is getting an elite center back, even if he isn't quite there yet. But even if they weren't, you seem to think that Dumba and a 1st SHOULD net you an elite center, even if you don't think Thomas is one, and I guarantee you that it will not.

Hey, if the Blues don't want to make the trade, that's their choice. I aint going to force them. I wasn't looking at it from a STL POV in terms of their needs at all anyway. Just straight up value of the pieces involved in the hypothetical trade scenario.

I personally don't think he is elite now though and Im not convinced he ever will be. That is not to say because I don't think he'll be elite that he therefore is a crappy player by default, which is what so many people seem to think when you disagree with someone. I don't think ROR is elite either but he is still damn good hockey player. Not being elite isn't a knock on any one. Elite has to be reserved for the best of the best or else the word loses its meaning.

Thomas is good now. He is only going to get better with age. That better with age IMHO isn't elite like the Mackinnon, Mcdavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, Eichel, etc etc etc I feel if Minny offers their 1st this year which is currently 11th but could be higher plus Dumba with Stalock thrown on top should be able to net a very high end player whose on the verge of elite as is. That Minny pick has as much potential of being elite as Thomas does IMO.

Seeing as how Thomas is an easy no from STL fans, lets have some fun with this. What if it was Suzuki and lets say Charlie Lindgren going back instead. Would that suffice?

I understand your point and that you aren't knocking Thomas. But everyone forgets that MacKinnon was somewhat of a disappointment when he started out and Draisaitl was considered overpayed just two years ago. Elite doesn't mean "Elite when they are drafted". I think if STL trades Thomas, we will look back and say they traded an elite player. You can disagree, you obviously do, but I think you're wrong, and that's fine.

But now I'm more interested in this. You think Matt Dumba, a first and Alex "0.909 career sv%" Stalok gets you an elite center?? A Petterson, a Matthews, an Eichel etc.?? What are you on can I please have some

It's a lot to give but I might be inclined to do it. I was a huge fan of Suzuki before he was traded and was actually hoping the Wild could find a way to trade for him before he was shipped to Montreal (if you go digging in my post history I'm pretty sure I made some threads about him). We don't really need Lindgren though with Kahkonen and Robson already on our AHL squad.

I guess I don't really understand it from Montreal's perspective? I thought Danault and Suzuki were supposed to be your short term top 6 C's with KK eventually sliding into that role. Or would you ice Domi and Danault in the top 6? And I also thought Montreal was pretty set on the blue line with Weber, Petry, and Juulsen. I guess if Petry walks or retires MTL would need another RD...

In hindsight the whole Dumb + 11th overall for a really good but not elite center is probably stupid. But Suzuki does have considerable upside...

Who said anything about when they were drafted? Mack was a beast in first season. He had a few down years but that was him underachieving. Not sure you can compare Macks 38 point second season to Thomas's 42 point second season and say "see they're both elite". One guy was elite from the get go and underachieved. The other wasn't touted as elite and in overachieving. There is a huge difference there IMO. You are free to think otherwise.

As for getting an elite center, I kind of need to redact that as even I had to rethink what I said. What I actually mean is *close to an elite center. I had rephrased it in my last comment to you. Its says "should be able to net a very high end player whose on the verge of elite as is"

For context, STL got ROR for Thompson, Berglund, Sobotka a protected 1st and a 2nd rounder. We're talking about the 11th pick, possibly higher, in one of the draft people are proclaiming is on of the best in years, a certified top 4 dman whose in his prime and has the ability to be a game breaker and cheap cost controlled back up goalie (whatever, Stalock isn't the important part of this deal here).

Yeah I think it should land you a ROR easily but yeah, definitely not a Mackinnon or Draisaitl etc. I misspoke about that.

Edit: Boy oh boy, spelling mistakes galore. I've proof read this post again and corrected some things in case you wondering what the heck I was trying to convey. lol

I only added Lindgren in place of Allen. He doesn't have to be there. Stalock doesn't really need to either. Although the Habs could actually use a veteran backup.

Suzuki is very good but I think the Habs are well suited to be a good team upfront already. Moving him would not be a ding on his ability or what I hope for him. Just moving pieces around to fill needs in other places.

If we can land Dumba, Petry can be expendable, mainly because of his high demand and the fact that the Habs are young building team. Petry won't be in his prime by the time the Habs are ready to contend. We're essentially getting a younger Petry in Dumba at a fraction of his IMO actual cost. (Just last year he was almost untouchable was he not?) The by moving out Petry now, we'd be getting top value as Petry is coming off multiple great season in a row and is a pending UFA.

The 11th pick is what really gets this done though. I am confident the Habs could land a just as good player as Suzuki with their 8th pick (Holtz/Perfetti/Rossi/Lundell/Raymond/etc etc) and adding the 11th pick ensures they get that second high end piece that I feel the Habs could use in a guy like Jake Sanderson on the blueline where aside from Romanov the Habs are lacking another game breaker.

This would be me being opportunistic more than anything. Taking "advantage" of the situation when a good opportunity arises.

Of course I don't mean MacKinnon and Thomas are the same, I'm just saying becoming "Elite" isn't always a completely linear path, and just because Thomas hasn't produced at an elite pace in the NHL (in only his second season) doesn't mean that they won't ever be there. But, honestly, we're getting hung up on production here and I don't necessarily see that as the only hallmark of being elite. I don't ever really see Thomas as a dynamic scorer, he's always been more of a playmaker and always been solid defensively. I think he could very easily become a Couturier/Bergeron type, and I think both of those guys are elite.

Which, at that point, maybe this comes down to semantics over what you consider "elite", because maybe Couturier/Bergeron don't make your elite list. Draisaitl is an elite goal scorer, indisputably, but is abysmal in his own end. Does that mean he isn't truly elite? A lot of people, including me, would still say he is, despite his defensive play. I think Couturier and Bergeron (both of who score 20+ every year so it's not like they're bums), who are primarily elite defensive forwards but don't have quite the offensive upside are also elite, but that isn't quite as universally agreed upon, especially with Couturier. But it's tough, because you can either be really exclusive with the "elite" tier and just have guys like McDavid, Crosby, maybe even Matthews who are just good at everything but once you start opening it up to the Draisaitl's and Petterson's of the league who are a bit more one-dimensional on the offensive side I think you gotta give the defensive minded guys elite credit too.

I am seeing your "close to elite" statement now, must have glossed over that. I would generally agree that that package could get you a higher end, Logan Couture or Tyler Seguin-type (discounting contracts and whether those teams would actually trade them), but it bares mentioning that Buffalo handled the O'Reilly trade very very poorly and should have gotten much more for him. That trade swirled in the ethos quite a bit before it happened and most of the mock trades were demanding Thomas, a first, and a good forward. The only thing they got out of there was the first, considering the Blues were trying to dump Berglund and Sobotka anyway.

Ha, you're all good. Believe me, I'll never be a guy to make a fuss over spelling.