I would do this in a heart beat. But The canes dont even consider it.

ahahhahahahhahahhahahhahhahahh

I see that the trade works for Toronto but who is the other team it works for?

Leafs fans REALLY overestimate Kappanen's value, and I like Kappy a lot.

Canes laugh.

It's Nylander or Marner for Pesce. Not moving their only long-term RHD for a 3rd line winger.

Yiiikes. Brady Skjei just got a 1st. You think Pesce is going for Kapanen and a diminishing asset in Bracco? Maybe this gets Brady Skjei, but no chance does it get Pesce. I don’t think adding a first comes close to getting it done.

Ugh. I just can’t believe you said, “a trade that works for both teams.” At least be honest about your pillaging ways.

I like Kapanen but he sure isn't worth a top 4 Dman on a team friendly contract. Canes management, their fans and junior Kapanen don't give a flying you know what that senior Kapanen was once a Cane.

Death, Taxes and Leaf Fans lowballing offers for Pesce

Lol, just like Manson is worth Sandin, Liljegren, Kapanen and 14 1st round picks.

"He's a right handed shut down defenceman!" He's right handed and was playing with a star player in Slavin who really is the one that does all the work. Pesce is the most overrated player on this site.

I do think that Manson is worth Liljegren. I actually had a discussion about this with a Ducks fan who wanted more than Liljegren for Manson, I myself thought that Liljegren alone should be enough because Manson is not that good really.

Pesce is another story though. He's actually solid. And he has a long-term dream contract.

He has a great value.

For a competitive playoff team that CAR is, if Pesce has to be moved, they want to upgrade their team level-wise. Future assets are unnecessary.

This is why Nylander or Marner are the only assets that make sense.

Couldnt agree more with this. The leafs would be a better team to swap nylander (over valued by leafs fan but similar value to pesce) for pesce straight up. Save on space and make your defense better.



Get a grip man, slavin is terrific but he doesnt do all the work. Pesce is very solid. And nobody has said anything about manson like that. It's just that you over value kapanen

I don't think Pesce is overrated.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/trying-identify-best-defensive-defencemen-nhl/

I know the Leafs lost against Carolina the other night and really didn't look good for the second half of the game but prior to that, Matthews made Pesce look silly several times. Slavin is a star, he carries their defence. Pesce is a benefit of his surroundings. If he had to carry anything, he'd go no where. He's a good player but he's not half of what this site thinks he is.

The problem with those articles is its hard to pin point why exactly players show well in advance stats. Is it a product of their team's system? Who they play with? What is their competition each night? I believe at the time of this article, Hamilton was still playing, and he was playing lesser competition on the 2nd pair.

You think they tried to give dougie Hamilton the tough match ups? Dougie Hamilton? Seriously?

Softer than baby poo Dougie Hamilton. Can confirm did not get the tough matchups lol.

If it were a product of his team, wouldn't there be a teammate that shows better numbers? The competition is a valid question, but if a guy is clearly effective based on looking at these stats, I would think that they have earned the trust of their coach to play in defensive situations. It's an assumption, but it doesn't refute the stats. So anyway, there is data here on Quality of Competition https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/qoct/1920/CAR/pescebr94/wrap; it's tricky to read but it shows that Pesce spends more time than the average player on the ice against a team's top 4 forwards (and that he's a top-3 d-man for his team in terms of TOI). You could contrast Pesce's deployment to someone like TVR who gets the easy deployment (https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/qoct/1920/CAR/vanritr91/wrap); it shows he faces the 5-12 forwards of the opposition more than the average player would.

pwned.

And TVR rarely would play with the likes of Svechnikov, Aho and Turbo but Pesce will spend most of his minutes playing with the top 2 lines of Carolina. Advanced stats are great and I like them but there is a reason almost all teams have their own advance stats department and don't rely on the ones the media and fans do. Its easy to come up with numbers but correlating that data and making sense if it is incredibly difficult especially without watching the player and understanding how the game is played. The number one reason a team is good defensively or not is their system. To defend effectively you need a cohesive 5 man unit that knows what their assignments are. Carolina is very good in that regard. Personal help of course and that is why certain players are more successful than others but the system is the biggest contributor. Pesce is the #3 defenceman in Carolina, and he's been good, but he's also benefiting from the system and the players he plays against as well as being on the 2nd pair for most of the season. Slavin gets the toughest assignments all the time and he excells in those situations. I know you can't take a 1 game snapshot and use that as ammo but the other night Matthews had very little trouble with Pesce but Slavin was always there backing him up. I know Matthews didn't score but he went around Pesce several times without trouble but just couldn't find room behind him due to the teams defensive coverage. Pesce will look good from an advanced stats point of view in that game but only because of everyone else behind him. If he was on TO, he wouldn't suddenly become some sort of superstar, I'd wager he'd look suspect a lot. I just don't see the skills that true top end guys have in Pesce. He is not even close to as good as Parayko.

Good one.

So... you said he's overrated because he doesn't face tough competition... but now it doesn't matter when you see that he plays against the top competition because he plays with the best players on his team... If a guy plays with the best players on his team, against the best players on the other team (which is true for Pesce), maybe he's just a good player? Those advanced stats that Berkshire collects (not sure where he gets them from, they're not publicly available) are just the counts of good plays that are made, over a big sample size, while that player is on the ice. If systems were the biggest determining factor for how good a player is at those stats, i.e. suppressing entries/shots, wouldn't the graphs just be clusters of players from each team right near each other? Would Cody Ceci's shot suppression data look nearly the same as Jake Muzzin's? Would teams even bother looking for good players when they could just hire better coaches?


His usage looks fairly similar to Pesce's but apparently more entries/shots/etc happened when he was on the ice.



You may not see the skills because defense is a measure of what doesn't happen

Pesce is not worth close to Nylander. Everyone outside Leaf fans it seems, think Pesce is worth Nylander + and that is just silly. That is why he's overrated. He's a good player, I don't discount that but he's a secondary asset. That is not worth a 23 year old elite offensive player who's best hockey is still to come.

Well that's completely different. Pesce is an extremely good defender. Some people just hate Leafs players and/or misunderstand Nylander. Independent of team needs, their value would probably be pretty similar IMO.