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Post Trade Deadline

Did Habs do enough?
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24 févr. 2020 à 19 h 18
#1
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The Trade Deadline has come and gone and here is a summary of moves done by the Habs:

Acquired:
Aaron Luchuk
2020 2nd
2020 3rd
2020 4th (conditional)
2021 4th
2021 5th
2020 7th

Sent out:
Marco Scandella (50% retained)
Matthew Peca
Ilya Kovalchuk (50% retained)
Nate Thompson
Nick Cousins

Personally I'm satisfied with this. We are a seller and we were successful in selling all the pieces that had to go now and got decent returns for them. Petry and Tatar would absolutely get larger returns, but we can deal them at the draft or during the summer, no need to rush a deal today, especially if we weren't getting the offers we wanted.

What are your thoughts?
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24 févr. 2020 à 19 h 54
#2
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Quoting: MasterMatt23
The Trade Deadline has come and gone and here is a summary of moves done by the Habs:

Acquired:
Aaron Luchuk
2020 2nd
2020 3rd
2020 4th (conditional)
2021 4th
2021 5th
2020 7th

Sent out:
Marco Scandella (50% retained)
Matthew Peca
Ilya Kovalchuk (50% retained)
Nate Thompson
Nick Cousins

Personally I'm satisfied with this. We are a seller and we were successful in selling all the pieces that had to go now and got decent returns for them. Petry and Tatar would absolutely get larger returns, but we can deal them at the draft or during the summer, no need to rush a deal today, especially if we weren't getting the offers we wanted.

What are your thoughts?


Bergevin is committed to winning next year and I'm glad he stuck to his plan. People seem to want him to blow it up, but with the recent draft picks and the current draft picks we have, I don't think there is a need too. We were voted by the Athletic as the 2nd best prospect core in the league, and we have the most picks for the 2020 draft now.

Some of the returns were underwhelming, but everybody we traded were UFA's or in Cousins case, asking for way to much money on their next contract. Bergevin played it safe, which in my opinion, was the right choice.
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24 févr. 2020 à 20 h 47
#3
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Bergevin did wonders with what he did do today. You have to give credit where credit is due and applaud him for it. He turned free players into new assets. Recouped and improved upon all his value that he had lost and gave MTL a slew of picks going into the draft.

With that being said, I'm calling this now, this team has to be squarely in a playoff spot by this time next year. If not he is all but surely going to be fired. He's gone to bat for this core of players for the past 5 years now and its clearly not working. I just hope by the time that happens its not too late because with the Price and Weber contracts and the like 5 big name pending UFA's next year, it will be one of the most critical for Montreal in a long time. Another year of mediocrity coupled with not making calculated decisions when the timing is right, will result in the Habs having to rebuild for another 5 years after that. When it would have been almost done by now had they just done it when they should have.

IMHO Bergevin's legacy in Montreal will be as unflattering as his 19 year, 36 goal career. He GM's the same way his hockey career went. Just to stay alive. Not to thrive.
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26 févr. 2020 à 14 h 10
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Quoting: F50marco
Bergevin did wonders with what he did do today. You have to give credit where credit is due and applaud him for it. He turned free players into new assets. Recouped and improved upon all his value that he had lost and gave MTL a slew of picks going into the draft.

With that being said, I'm calling this now, this team has to be squarely in a playoff spot by this time next year. If not he is all but surely going to be fired. He's gone to bat for this core of players for the past 5 years now and its clearly not working. I just hope by the time that happens its not too late because with the Price and Weber contracts and the like 5 big name pending UFA's next year, it will be one of the most critical for Montreal in a long time. Another year of mediocrity coupled with not making calculated decisions when the timing is right, will result in the Habs having to rebuild for another 5 years after that. When it would have been almost done by now had they just done it when they should have.

IMHO Bergevin's legacy in Montreal will be as unflattering as his 19 year, 36 goal career. He GM's the same way his hockey career went. Just to stay alive. Not to thrive.


I just don't get the sky high expectations towards MB. Yes, this team hasn't shown apparent signs of progress over the last 3 years, but does that mean he's doing poorly as a GM? Actually, how can we measure the performance of a GM?

By his number of Stanley Cups? That sounds pretty reliable, but only if you take a measure over many decades: in the cap era, the only realistic expectation is that any given team will win 1 championship every 31 years, soon to be 32. Plus, the cap is not state-tax adjusted, and a lot of teams are surfing on the remnants of the old lottery formula, so that kind of rigs the probabilities. Therefore, one could argue that no championship in 8 years is actually nothing to worry about, and that MB is doing as good as pretty much everyone else.

What about building the core? This one is easy to mesure: when MB took over in 2012, MTL's core was 7-8 players deep, and there weren't many notable prospects in the pipe. Fast foward to 2020 and the core is now 12-13 players deep while the prospect pool is one of the league's very best. By any measure, this team is in a much better shape on that front than it was 8 years ago, so that's one thing MB must be good at.

What about instilling chemistry, coherence and a winning mentality to this core? That one is debatable, but judging by MB's tendency to make unpopular decisions (not trading Tatar, a locker-room favorite, being the latest example), I'd again say that it's something MB is at least trying to achieve.

So anyhow, I totally get that MB should take the heat for yet another lackluster of a season, and for not disclosing how he intends to end what is now a 3 year playoff drought. But I'd say that he's not part of the problem. As a matter of fact, he's doing fine.
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27 févr. 2020 à 12 h 12
#5
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Quoting: gm_jeanguy
I just don't get the sky high expectations towards MB. Yes, this team hasn't shown apparent signs of progress over the last 3 years, but does that mean he's doing poorly as a GM? Actually, how can we measure the performance of a GM?

By his number of Stanley Cups? That sounds pretty reliable, but only if you take a measure over many decades: in the cap era, the only realistic expectation is that any given team will win 1 championship every 31 years, soon to be 32. Plus, the cap is not state-tax adjusted, and a lot of teams are surfing on the remnants of the old lottery formula, so that kind of rigs the probabilities. Therefore, one could argue that no championship in 8 years is actually nothing to worry about, and that MB is doing as good as pretty much everyone else.

What about building the core? This one is easy to mesure: when MB took over in 2012, MTL's core was 7-8 players deep, and there weren't many notable prospects in the pipe. Fast foward to 2020 and the core is now 12-13 players deep while the prospect pool is one of the league's very best. By any measure, this team is in a much better shape on that front than it was 8 years ago, so that's one thing MB must be good at.

What about instilling chemistry, coherence and a winning mentality to this core? That one is debatable, but judging by MB's tendency to make unpopular decisions (not trading Tatar, a locker-room favorite, being the latest example), I'd again say that it's something MB is at least trying to achieve.

So anyhow, I totally get that MB should take the heat for yet another lackluster of a season, and for not disclosing how he intends to end what is now a 3 year playoff drought. But I'd say that he's not part of the problem. As a matter of fact, he's doing fine.


Yes lots to agree with here but I disagree with plenty also.

The expectations aren't sky high for MB..... but the expectation is that he has to show clear lines of progression. He hasn't done that. Blaming everything from injuries to character to players not performing. Under this mentality, this team could make the playoffs 1 out of every 5 years and he'd have a valid excuse every year. That is simply not good enough.

I think its very easy to gauge a GM's performance. All you got to do is ask yourself one question: Has what he's done in his tenure thus far lead you to believe this team will win a cup before his eventual dismissal?

IMHO - Up until 15-16, I raved of just about everything he had done and I felt like the Habs were just one top center away from winning a cup. Each year since, has been a downward spiral of lacklustre performances and most of all EXCUSES. The difference between his 1st 3-4 years and his last 3-4 years has been the roster. The first half of players were given to him. That roster was mainly comprised of players who were there before he even made a significant adjustment to the team. The latter has been his doing, his hands are all over it and what has he got to show for it?

Believe it or not, I don't have sky high expectations for MB. I just want him to be ahead of the curve. New age thinking or at the very least proactive. He is neither. He is literally the other side of that spectrum. The GM that reacts when its too late. That line of thinking is what sinks a franchise for years and wastes so much time.

Has he made good trades? Yes. Has he made bad trades? yes. They can be at the very least cancelling out. But everything else? Drafting? UFA? Future plan? Pro activeness? He has earned any of that yet. And just to harp on the fact that you mentioned his drafting is good: Just remember those players haven't done jack squat yet. I hope Caulfield is a superstar but he may just be a 25 goal scorer. lets pump our brakes for a second and look at what he has done: From his first year till lets say 2016 has been a mitigated disaster of drafting. Galchenyuk, Lehkonen and Sergachev/Drouin. That is abysmal with considering two top 10 drafted players. His 2017 to present is looking promising but it is way too early to tell if he is worthy of his praise. development will play a big part in that and that has been one of the worst things about his tenure in all fairness.

I'll gladly sit back and hope for next year but I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone who says he has been just fine. "Just fine" is the same thing as mediocre. I don't want just fine. i want good. Good teams make the playoffs more times than not.

My last comments final sentence rings so true (IMO obviously Sticking Out Tongue ) that I'll say it again:

"Bergevin's legacy in Montreal will be as unflattering as his 19 year, 36 goal career. He GM's the same way his hockey career went. Just to stay alive. Not to thrive."
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15 mai 2020 à 15 h 3
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Evans truther
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Modifié 15 mai 2020 à 15 h 9
Quoting: F50marco
"Bergevin's legacy in Montreal will be as unflattering as his 19 year, 36 goal career. He GM's the same way his hockey career went. Just to stay alive. Not to thrive."

Pretty harsh imo; He has traded his -former- number 1 defenseman (Subban) for immediate help, his 1st round pick (Sergachev) for immediate help and a pair of second round picks for immediate help (Shaw). Yes we can argue about winning or losing the trades but he was doing more than just surviving and sadly at one point he just admitted to himself that this roster wasn't working so he started tearing it apart piece by piece. One thing I'll give you is that he hasn't been ahead of the curve but we tend to forget that he was a rookie GM and I think this is why Molson has a longer leach on him. At least he now shows that he's learned from it and goes for longer term projects with higher ceiling that will soon flourish in the org, no more McCarron kind of guys and more Hillis, Suzuki, Caufield. Skills over size.
He hasn't reached for the moon but he did make balzy moves that some GMs aren't doing troughout their whole career and sadly these moves haven't had enough immediate effects on the team which caused everyone to aged. I think we could say he hasn't been pushing enough but I don't think we can say he hasn't pushed at all.
I always enjoy reading you Marco!
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15 mai 2020 à 17 h 28
#7
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Quoting: ColonelX
Pretty harsh imo; He has traded his -former- number 1 defenseman (Subban) for immediate help, his 1st round pick (Sergachev) for immediate help and a pair of second round picks for immediate help (Shaw). Yes we can argue about winning or losing the trades but he was doing more than just surviving and sadly at one point he just admitted to himself that this roster wasn't working so he started tearing it apart piece by piece. One thing I'll give you is that he hasn't been ahead of the curve but we tend to forget that he was a rookie GM and I think this is why Molson has a longer leach on him. At least he now shows that he's learned from it and goes for longer term projects with higher ceiling that will soon flourish in the org, no more McCarron kind of guys and more Hillis, Suzuki, Caufield. Skills over size.
He hasn't reached for the moon but he did make balzy moves that some GMs aren't doing troughout their whole career and sadly these moves haven't had enough immediate effects on the team which caused everyone to aged. I think we could say he hasn't been pushing enough but I don't think we can say he hasn't pushed at all.
I always enjoy reading you Marco!


Oh don't get me wrong, he has made some good moves for in which I think because they worked out as they have, he still has job as a result. I think he has shown that on the micro scale he has been lights out good. I have in general disagreed with his overall macro management however. In regards to my analogy, I guess its important to remember, simply making the NHL is still a high accomplishment. With that said, nobody ever remembers the Randy Ladouceurs's and Bob McGills of the world. That's kind of where I was going with that. MB played to just try and stay as long as possible in the NHL without really ever making a major impact on the ice. Which as lacklustre as it sounds is again, still a huge accomplishment considering his long playing career. Just not the accomplishment I'm looking for in the mind of a GM.

I guess my over criticism of him has been because of my own personal journey along the way. I feel I shifted from "general fan" to "fan who also likes to manage" right around the time MB came into office. Kind of felt I was on the job along with him.

I feel that I, the unknowledgeable fan, should never have, what seems to be a better understanding of what to do next than an actual GM should. Yet I found myself , trade after trade, signing after signing, decision after decision, being astonished by his ineptitude. Moreso astonished by the fact that I, the unknowledgeable fan, saw it coming a mile a way and yet he did not?

At the end of the day, my criticism is less about how bad he has been but more about what could have been if not for a few illogical but very critical moves that changed the course of the team drastically.

I believe, at the core of my soul, had he handled June 1 2016 - July 2nd 2017 bette........... or you know what? I'll take ownership of it - the way I think he should have handled it, the Habs would not only be a playoff team right now, they'd be right up there with the likes of TB and BOS. That's why I judge MB so harshly.

Edit: My belief was semi backed up by other teams making similar trades during that time and flourishing which made me believe that I was not just out to lunch.
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15 mai 2020 à 20 h 27
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Quoting: F50marco
I believe, at the core of my soul, had he handled June 1 2016 - July 2nd 2017 bette........... or you know what? I'll take ownership of it - the way I think he should have handled it, the Habs would not only be a playoff team right now, they'd be right up there with the likes of TB and BOS. That's why I judge MB so harshly

Tell me which moves, share your thoughts mate!
21 mai 2020 à 12 h 24
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Quoting: ColonelX
Tell me which moves, share your thoughts mate!


Well for starters, and yes its slightly in hindsight but I can only assure you I had the same thought about it back then as I do now, but the Subban trade and the Drouin trade for starters. Frankly its a slew of things though. Isolating only one move isn't fair. Its the culmination of multiple things that I disagreed with that led to this opinion.
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