Forums/Armchair-GM

Curious Question for Leafs fans

Créé par: Stan_Bowman
Date de création initiale: déc 10, 2019
Publié: 10 déc 2019 à 12 h 08
Équipe: 2019-20 Blackhawks de Chicago
Explications
Has your opinion changed?

As it stands I would probably not do this trade as a result of how integral Saad and Murphy have been to the Hawks this season.

Anyways, not trying to start a fight... please be civil.
Transactions
CHI
  1. Nylander, William
Détails additionnels:
Nylander leads Saad by seven points.
TOR
  1. Saad, Brandon
  2. Murphy, Connor
Détails additionnels:
Was pitched as a move to help the leafs improve defensively, they get two quality NHL players for 1. Saad won't outscore Nylander, but his 200-foot game combined with the leafs sore need for a shutdown RHD would be the difference.
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Robin Lehner: 2 500 000 $ (50%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2020
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
2021
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
MTL
2022
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2381 500 000 $75 484 160 $0 $7 665 000 $6 015 840 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
CHI
Nylander, Alexander
863 333 $
AD, AG
RFA - 2
CHI
Toews, Jonathan
10 500 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 4
TOR
Nylander, William
6 962 366 $
AD, AG
UFA - 5
CHI
DeBrincat, Alex
778 333 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
CHI
Strome, Dylan
863 333 $
C
RFA - 1
CHI
Kane, Patrick
10 500 000 $
AD
NMC
UFA - 4
CHI
Kubalik, Dominik
925 000 $
AG
RFA - 1
CHI
Kämpf, David
1 000 000 $
C, AD
RFA - 2
CHI
Dach, Kirby
925 000 $
C, AD
RFA - 3
CHI
Sikura, Dylan
750 000 $
AG, AD, C
RFA - 2
CHI
Carpenter, Ryan
1 000 000 $
AD, C
UFA - 3
CHI
Highmore, Matthew
775 833 $
AD
RFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
CHI
De Haan, Calvin
4 550 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 3
CHI
Gustafsson, Erik
1 200 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 1
CHI
Crawford, Corey
6 000 000 $
G
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
CHI
Määttä, Olli
4 083 333 $
DG
UFA - 3
CHI
Boqvist, Adam
894 167 $
DD
RFA - 3
CHI
Lehner, Robin
1 400 000 $
G
UFA - 1
CHI
Koekkoek, Slater
925 000 $
DG/DD
RFA - 1
CHI
Seabrook, Brent
6 875 000 $
DD
NMC
UFA - 5
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
CHI
Caggiula, Drake
1 500 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
CHI
Keith, Duncan
5 538 462 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 4
CHI
Shaw, Andrew
3 900 000 $
C, AD
UFA - 3
CHI
Smith, Zack
3 250 000 $
AG, C
NTC
UFA - 2
CHI
Gilbert, Dennis
925 000 $
DG
RFA - 2

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10 déc 2019 à 12 h 09
#1
Canucks for Canada
Rejoint: fév 2019
Messages: 7,056
Mentions "j'aime": 1,732
Doesn't help Leafs' cap situation
Maybe retain some stuf on Saad
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 10
#2
Démarrer sujet
Nylander Apologist
Rejoint: fév 2018
Messages: 5,117
Mentions "j'aime": 2,251
Quoting: MaxDomi13
Doesn't help Leafs' cap situation
Maybe retain some stuf on Saad


Forget the cap situation for a sec, give me your opinion on the player for player transfer.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 12
#3
Benny
Rejoint: oct 2016
Messages: 60
Mentions "j'aime": 13
Saad's best years are behind him IMO, and Nylander's are up coming, I don't do that trade
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 12
#4
Canucks for Canada
Rejoint: fév 2019
Messages: 7,056
Mentions "j'aime": 1,732
Quoting: Stan_Bowman
Forget the cap situation for a sec, give me your opinion on the player for player transfer.


I don't know

Nylander>Saad
Nylander>Murphy
but

Nylander <> Saad+Murphy
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 13
#5
Démarrer sujet
Nylander Apologist
Rejoint: fév 2018
Messages: 5,117
Mentions "j'aime": 2,251
Quoting: Laquille
Saad's best years are behind him IMO, and Nylander's are up coming, I don't do that trade


Saad is actually in one of his best years (Advanced stats wise) currently. I think Saad and Murphy also fit in better with your contention window than Nylander. However, a valid point.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 14
#6
Rejoint: avr 2019
Messages: 4,730
Mentions "j'aime": 1,125
Quoting: Stan_Bowman
Forget the cap situation for a sec, give me your opinion on the player for player transfer.


Nylanders upside is significant compared to Saad, yes Saad is rougher but truthfully is kinda pointless if you don't have the soft Nylander on his line, I absolutely would love to see Murphy in a Leafs jersey with Rielly, but would be more inclined to offer up Kapenen, Johansson the 2020 2nd rnd for Shaw and Murphy
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 17
#7
Démarrer sujet
Nylander Apologist
Rejoint: fév 2018
Messages: 5,117
Mentions "j'aime": 2,251
Quoting: Boomer125
Nylanders upside is significant compared to Saad, yes Saad is rougher but truthfully is kinda pointless if you don't have the soft Nylander on his line, I absolutely would love to see Murphy in a Leafs jersey with Rielly, but would be more inclined to offer up Kapenen, Johansson the 2020 2nd rnd for Shaw and Murphy


OK Boomer.

*Cringe intensifies*

Understandable, I am just wondering where leafs fans stand on this.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 21
#8
GM Hockeysaurus Rex
Rejoint: jui 2016
Messages: 13,889
Mentions "j'aime": 5,605
Without taking cap into consideration. I would consider it mainly fair deal for both sides. Both players coming back are still young (none are better than William Nylander who is integral part of the Leafs team. I loooove Saad. He is this generations Hossa imo and would get scoring on that level as well. Murphy is shutdown defensive defenseman that is very good and fitting with the Leafs. I think Leafs wont do this type of deal, but I really do like the pieces coming back (and I think Saad would flourish in Toronto with Matthews. Like 60-70 point two way amazing player flourish).
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 24
#9
Démarrer sujet
Nylander Apologist
Rejoint: fév 2018
Messages: 5,117
Mentions "j'aime": 2,251
Quoting: SammyT_51
Without taking cap into consideration. I would consider it mainly fair deal for both sides. Both players coming back are still young (none are better than William Nylander who is integral part of the Leafs team. I loooove Saad. He is this generations Hossa imo and would get scoring on that level as well. Murphy is shutdown defensive defenseman that is very good and fitting with the Leafs. I think Leafs wont do this type of deal, but I really do like the pieces coming back (and I think Saad would flourish in Toronto with Matthews. Like 60-70 point two way amazing player flourish).


That was actually one of my arguments when these types of posts were originally going on. Just for perspective's sake, this was a hard no from the leaf's fans at the start of the summer. Nice to know that some leaf fan's perspectives have changed.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 31
#10
GM Hockeysaurus Rex
Rejoint: jui 2016
Messages: 13,889
Mentions "j'aime": 5,605
Quoting: Stan_Bowman
That was actually one of my arguments when these types of posts were originally going on. Just for perspective's sake, this was a hard no from the leaf's fans at the start of the summer. Nice to know that some leaf fan's perspectives have changed.


I was pretty high on Saad all the time, but offers of him straight up for Nylander were unappealing. Not good. Nylander is amazing kid.. Saad is what? freshly 27? Thats barely after RFA stage.. he is very good player. People need to realize how good Saad is. Not as good as Nylander, but better than they think.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 37
#11
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 16,694
Mentions "j'aime": 5,054
Its going to be the same answer for ever. Murphy doesn't move the needle enough to warrant a big return and Saad isn't nearly as good as Nylander. Nylander is only getting better and has been one of the best Leafs all year. This is an overpayment. Nylander isn't getting traded. End of discussion. Murphy and something for Ceci and Johnsson is a possibility though.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 39
#12
exo2769
Rejoint: jui 2015
Messages: 7,446
Mentions "j'aime": 2,384
Modifié 10 déc 2019 à 13 h 08
Do I think Nylander is the best player in the deal??? Yes, but barely. I can understand the argument that he's younger. I can also understand the argument that IF his best years are ahead of him that he'll be worth the cap. But that's where I differ from most Leafs fans. I just have a hard time hearing for 3 straight years that the best years are still ahead of him...AND YET...how ironic that he's on pace for exactly 61 points...AGAIN. First of all, let's all at least agree that's a bit ironic. Career high of 61 points (twice) and trending toward exactly 61 points again for the 3rd time.

I think Nylander does a nice job of carrying the pace of play. Something the Hawks need to do a better job of to be honest. I just see too many similarities in how the Hawks FEEL about Saad (AND his history!) vs how the Leafs FEEL about Nylander. Very different types of players of course, but surprisingly close results and the cap delta justifies the stat delta. Style of play suits each team differently. NYI would probably prefer Saad over Nylander's style of play where TOR and PIT would probably prefer Nylander's style of play.

I wouldn't do the trade because we need Murphy on the back end. He and DeHaan have been what the Hawks were missing last year. If we could get a 3rd one of these guys, I'd do it. Not 1 less of these guys.
Hawksince71 a aimé ceci.
10 déc 2019 à 12 h 40
#13
Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 981
Mentions "j'aime": 305
Quoting: Stan_Bowman
That was actually one of my arguments when these types of posts were originally going on. Just for perspective's sake, this was a hard no from the leaf's fans at the start of the summer. Nice to know that some leaf fan's perspectives have changed.


There's no chance I'd move Nylander for those two guys. If you are going to trade a player as good as Nylander is (and will be for the next 5-8 years) you want somebody who can make an equal impact. Both of these guys are solid NHL players, but Murphy is a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy ideally and Saad maybe helps the Leafs third line. That is not equivalent value for what Nylander brings. That's not to say they are not good players, I just think Toronto loses out on value with this deal.
Hawksince71 a aimé ceci.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 09
#14
Rejoint: jui 2019
Messages: 616
Mentions "j'aime": 155
It is an interesting proposal, but people who look at this will see only the upside of Nylander, not the superior defensive side Saad & Murphy. If I was Dubas, I would try and milk a draft pick out of it as well.

As a Hawk fan, I don’t want Nylander’s cap. He hasn’t sold me yet he is worth that yet.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 09
#15
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 16,694
Mentions "j'aime": 5,054
Quoting: exo2769
Do I think Nylander is the best player in the deal??? Yes, but barely. I can understand the argument that he's younger. I can also understand the argument that IF his best years are ahead of him that he'll be worth the cap. But that's where I differ from most Leafs fans. I just have a hard time hearing for 3 straight years that the best years are still ahead of him...AND YET...how ironic that he's on pace for exactly 61 points...AGAIN. First of all, let's all at least agree that's a bit ironic. Career high of 61 points (twice) and trending toward exactly 61 points again for the 3rd time!

I think Nylander does a nice job of carrying the pace of play. Something the Hawks need to do a better job of to be honest. I just see too many similarities in how the Hawks FEEL about Saad (AND his history!) vs how the Leafs FEEL about Nylander. Very different types of players of course, but surprisingly close results and the cap delta justifies the stat delta. Style of play suits each team differently. NYI would probably prefer Saad over Nylander's style of play where TOR and PIT would probably prefer Nylander's style of play.

I wouldn't do the trade because we need Murphy on the back end. He and DeHaan have been what the Hawks were missing last year. If we could get a 3rd one of these guys, I'd do it. Not 1 less of these guys.


Nylander has I think 13 or 14 points in his last 14 or 15 games. Under Keefe he's been better and better. With Babs gone and Nylander being actually valued by the coach, he's going to play a lot more and get more opportunities than ever before. The days of him getting 15 minutes a night are over. If you actually look at the advanced stats for Nylander, he creates offensive chances per 60 at a super elite rate. Something like top 20 league wide but he's never played more than below average 2nd liner minutes. Mainly because Babs was so stubborn.

This Nylander isn't worth his contract nonsense is all going to end very soon.
exo2769 a aimé ceci.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 17
#16
exo2769
Rejoint: jui 2015
Messages: 7,446
Mentions "j'aime": 2,384
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Nylander has I think 13 or 14 points in his last 14 or 15 games. Under Keefe he's been better and better. With Babs gone and Nylander being actually valued by the coach, he's going to play a lot more and get more opportunities than ever before. The days of him getting 15 minutes a night are over. If you actually look at the advanced stats for Nylander, he creates offensive chances per 60 at a super elite rate. Something like top 20 league wide but he's never played more than below average 2nd liner minutes. Mainly because Babs was so stubborn.

This Nylander isn't worth his contract nonsense is all going to end very soon.


So here's my question for you (and all Leafs fans really). I thought Nylander's play got better NOT because of Keefe (He's really be invisible the last 5 games) BUT more so because Marner was hurt. What do you think?

That sentence can be interpreted many different ways. Some may take it that Nylander's undervalued because he doesn't get the ice time or the #1PP role that he deserves and this proves it...OR...Some may take that as...Keefe gave them a short bump in excitement because there's a such thing as addition through subtraction. They got rid of the negative and that "high" or excitement is fading...OR many others.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 24
#17
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 16,694
Mentions "j'aime": 5,054
Quoting: exo2769
So here's my question for you (and all Leafs fans really). I thought Nylander's play got better NOT because of Keefe (He's really be invisible the last 5 games) BUT more so because Marner was hurt. What do you think?

That sentence can be interpreted many different ways. Some may take it that Nylander's undervalued because he doesn't get the ice time or the #1PP role that he deserves and this proves it...OR...Some may take that as...Keefe gave them a short bump in excitement because there's a such thing as addition through subtraction. They got rid of the negative and that "high" or excitement is fading...OR many others.


I think you like to look for reasons to lower the value of Nylander so he can be traded for less than what he's worth. He's a terrific player and I think one of the best players on the team. There are few NHLers who create more chances per 60 minutes than Nylander.
exo2769 a aimé ceci.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 25
#18
exo2769
Rejoint: jui 2015
Messages: 7,446
Mentions "j'aime": 2,384
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
I think you like to look for reasons to lower the value of Nylander so he can be traded for less than what he's worth. He's a terrific player and I think one of the best players on the team. There are few NHLers who create more chances per 60 minutes than Nylander.


ok, thanks for not answering the question....oh and you won't see 1 single team that I post that has the Hawks trading for Nylander.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 31
#19
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 16,694
Mentions "j'aime": 5,054
Quoting: exo2769
ok, thanks for not answering the question.


Dude, you don't like Nylander, you've made that abundantly clear. He's been terrific for the most part under Keefe, (the philly game was really ugly as was the Buffalo one, although Hutch is just really bad) . He's been far more engaged, dominated possession wise and still has put up 6 points in 8 games despite his trigger man going through a mini 5 game slump. I'd wager he'll be back to above a point a game now that Matthews is hopefully back on a heater.
exo2769 a aimé ceci.
10 déc 2019 à 13 h 42
#20
Hugh Hefner of CF
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 4,806
Mentions "j'aime": 2,891
Leafs decline.
11 déc 2019 à 1 h 11
#21
Rejoint: oct 2019
Messages: 480
Mentions "j'aime": 151
your right, I wouldn't do it either. Too much for Nylander.
 
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