I get your point and it's a valid one...but Rielly is an OD and like I've said before you have to expect to trade chances with them. I think at this point in his career this is who he is, it's too bad Wilson didn't focus more on the defensive aspect of the game with him when he first came up, same with Carlyle. Like I said, this is who he's always been he just wasn't as exposed before like he is now partly because at first he was young playing sheltered minutes then because Hainsey made him look better.

If we trade MO we'll be looking for a similar player shortly after IMO.

To me, he's a better version of Demar (he also got better every year and tried to create a 3point shot that didn't work out). Not saying they're the same player but there's alot of similarities between the two. I went into length earlier so I'll try to summarize, he doesn't space the floor enough or create room for his teammates unless he's getting double-teamed. He doesn't create for his team he's just tall with a great wingspan which allows him to gain speed and jump from behind the free-throw line for a dunk or stay down low and wait for a teammate to give him the ball so he can use his strength to outmuscle his opponent. I'm not saying he isn't good or getting better but he is definitely over-hyped, look at how easy Kawhi shut him down in the playoffs last year. I'm not saying he wouldn't be a great fit but he's primarily a 3-4 so that means we have to trade O.G.

We both know Masai wants him and will likely land him so who do you think he moves out og for?...Beal maybe?...not 1vs1.

Thanks for the sites, i forgot about hoops habit lol. Do you read Jays journal or Editor in Leaf?

@Trickster six pages and 127 after this 128 comments and only 3 negative one's by my count!!! That's how you know this is a good thread.

I would not trade Rielly but as Random said...would have to let him walk as a UFA. By then...hopefully the Sandins and Liljegrens of this organization are ready to step up.

You know a big problem with Milwaukee is their support cast is really not up to par. If Alphabet had a good support cast, there's zero question of his dominance.

Masai should use his leverage and entice Alphabet to join the Raptors. With our point guard play and strong bench, Raptors would be serious contenders once again. Btw...it's strong guard play that allows guys like Alphabet to pass the ball around...that's something the Bucks (fear the deer...lolol) don't do well.

As for the Jays, I have cooled off on reading about them. So disappointed they didn't go harder after Wheeler. Can't imagine them landing Cole...boo.

I'm not opposed to trading him if the return can help us win, but I would want to see more progression from the likes of Dermott, Sandin and Lilly first. It would also depend on what the return is because we could get a lesser but experienced dman coming back. Like I said, every player has a price it's more a matter of would another team meet our asking price.

BTW, I was messing around yesterday and had a 3, team trade idea that I thought was crazy but after seeing tricksters idea it might be more plausible. It was between us NJ and Columbus and was something like
To CBJ
Hischier
Barrie
Johnson

To TML
Jones
Anderson
Severson
Simmons
Blackwood
NJ 1st

To NJ
Nylander
Andersen
Keefoot
Cecil
Dubinsky

What do you think? How bad is it?

Blackwood and Simmonds have not been good. It's like buying really low on them. Simmonds isn't even as physical as he used to be. Power forward in name only...or based on past reputation.

They've built up their supporting cast specifically for him tho. They could certainly be better and I agree he would be better on the raps. The raps are still serious contenders IMO because they play a team game in a league where teams load up on as many superstars they can get and let them dominate. It's how I've wanted to see the leafs play for years. I don't doubt his dominance on the raps or Masai getting him and I won't be upset when it happens just probably not as happy as you and trickster.

I get it's strong point guard play that allows the rest of your team to dominate not just players like alphabet and Milwaukee isn't close to FVV and Lowry but most point guards/teams aren't lol. That brings up my next point what to do if the rumors are true that steady Freddy wants or gets $25-30mill and KL will be gone by then (assuming we sign the Greek Freak) so our point guard position will most likely be weekend plus O.G. has made a case for not signing him plus who's our 5? Both spicy P and alphabet are best utilized as 3-4s and OG as a 3 normally but can be used as a 4 in small-ball lineups.

Why go after Wheeler? He's not worth the $118mill he just got from Philly (would have been more signing with us) plus the 45th OA pick and i believe $500k in international bonus pool money. Wheeler is a good #3 on a contending team but like I said not worth the investment. As for Cole its like beating a dead horse we knowledgeable fans understand why we should back up the brinks trucks for him but our FO and ownership group won't invest, the likely $300mill it would take to get him unfortunately. Actually, Atkins just said they've been given $100mill to sign a marquee FA Lmfao. What marquee FA are we getting with a $100mill.

Simmons is only in there to match Ceci's cap hit then he's gone in the off-season. Sorta the same with Blackwood he's only coming back because we need a goalie for the rest of the season if we move Andersen and he would help us keep our pick this year.

The idea was Marner and Barrie for Jones and Anderson but thought he might be too expensive so I switched him with Nylander but again thought there was a better fit so I traded him for Hischier to give them a one-two punch of PLD and Hischier. They could extend Barrie or flip him for more assets and try to sign him in the off-season, plus they get to unload Dubinsky's contract.

NJ needs goaltending and Andersen is one of the best plus with losing Hall Nylander would give them a solid winger and with both they would be a more attractive destination. I wanted to give them Kap for Severson but they would need a center after shipping out Hischier. Then it's Freddie and Dubinsky for Blackwood and their 1st (steep price i know but the want to win now and already got back to back 1sts... I mean they don't want to become the oilers of the east lol). And Dubinsky can still be a serviceable bottom-six player for them who had some playoff experience.

We solve our D situation and add grit upfront, but we decimate our goaltending and Kerffy hurts to lose but you gotta give to get.

What do you think overall now that I've given my explanation?

Actually, I disagree. Bucks are not tailored perfectly for Alphabet. He is primarily handling the ball as the Bucks come up the court. That's a mistake imo

If Alphabet is your go-to guy in crunch time, fine...but for the rest of the game moving the using your guards is key...Raptors showed the league how to use your super star and win.
Leonard was relatively fresh for crunch time because Raptors used Lowry/Van Vleet to move and control the ball. That is what Alphabet is missing right now.

The matter of fact is the Jays have to overpay for players much more so than hockey players. It bothers me we aren't even in on top tier free agent pitchers but...it's even worse when we can't land second and third tier pitchers either.

I'm not hopeful that Keuchel is an answer for the Jays starting pitching. Btw...we need two bona fide starters, maybe three.
I'm not convinced we get one lol

I never said the Bucks supporting cast was tailor-made perfectly for him just specifically for him. Hell yeah it's a mistake, he should only move the rock up the court a couple times a game because he's the leader and sometimes needs to set an example and try to throw off the other team. Your point/shooting guards should be your most creative players which is why they should get more touches.

I think your missing my point here... I don't hate alphabet (I actually really like him) and I know he's improving but I expect more for all the hype he gets. I won't be upset if scratch that when we sign him, I just won't be as excited as most. I will root for him when he's a Rap and I'm probably a little too hard on him but I don't want to see us get bounced because he can't carry a team like we did so many times with DD. I get Nurse is a great coach and will utilize him properly and we will be good but does none of this concern you at all? It's also probably because I wish we still had Leonard?...he's the best player in the game! And it was magical!!

Your right "it is a matter of fact that the Jays have to overpay players much more so than hockey players" but isn't that how it should be? I mean why would the Jays want hockey players?!? Unless maybe a goalie to be a catcher but their heads would likely spin from trying to learn pitch framing/calling and working with the pitchers lol. In all seriousness though, Cole should be pitching for us...but that ain't happening and the second tier ain't worth it this year, next year will have more and better second-tier guys available.

Keuchel...eww? he would be a horrible fit and I can't understand for the life of me why so many bj fans want him on the team!?... It's baffling! Plus he likely gets a similar deal from a US team that has a better shot at competing. The 3rd tier is where we'll do our shopping and cheer up it's still early there's still hope lol. My top 3 realistic choices are Walker, Roark and Teharen in that order. I think all 3 is a reasonable and doable task for our FO. Who else you like?

Well you improve the D but...the cost of that improvement is huge. Yeah the goaltending gets decimated here.

I think @Trickster put some thought into the original idea. The other thing is...moving a big salary like Marner affords the ability to sign players to keep the team competitive. Not sure decimating the goaltending keeps the competitive.

I didn't miss your point, was just saying how much Alphabet has to control the rock when it's not crunch time with the Bucks.
And yes...sounds like you miss Kawhi lol
Truthfully the problem is we have only seen Alphabet in the Milwaukee offense and the Raptors showed how to stop him because the Bucks just don't have the skill in those other positions for Alphabet to pass off the rock when needed.

After listening to a radio segment on the Jays off-season signings (or lack thereof) I'm pessimistic they land anyone worth their salt.

At this point...they will sign a bunch of relative no names and hope to get lucky with one. That sounds so ****ty....

Dude, we move out $26.1mill and take back $17 using my math although feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The goaltending is the same situation as what was presented here the only difference is I'm bringing back Blackwood to suck for the rest of the year instead of Korpisalo who based on the advanced stats random showed us is actually the better goalie.

I put thought into this too. The plan was to go with a platoon in net next year I was thinking Lehner and trade for Murray because Dubas likes him so much, but definitely not my first choice. The deal I did gives us Severson too, plus if we're making this trade that means we likely aren't a playoff team so we would probably move out Muzzin too and maybe even Kap and or Hyman if Dubas and Shanny wanted too. And now that I think about it we could probably take Johnsson out of the deal because

Hirschier + Barrie greater than Jones + Anderson+ dumping Dubinsky's contract.

It's okay if you don't like the trade and it won't happen anyways but there are some valid reasons for all three teams to make a trade like this IMO. CBJ gets a two-headed monster down the middle to build around while shedding an unwanted contract. NJ wants to compete now and get one of the best goalies ( the position that's been their Achilles heel) in the league who they could extend in the off-season. They also get a great young winger in Nylander and both would make them a more desirable landing spot for top FA compared to no Hall and no goalie. The leafs fix their D while going to a tandem next year and have some money left over after signing our own to add to the team or keep future options open with our financial flexibility.

Yeah i get it the bucks suck that's why he has to control play so frequently but who's to say it would be better here? There's no guarantee FVV stays beyond this year and Lowry is getting older how much gas does he have left in the tank? If we win with him it won't be because of him (assuming the team stays relatively the same) we'll win because we play a TEAM GAME that is my point we don't NEED him in the first place. I would much rather watch OG develop than have to trade him just to sign an overrated player that makes no sense on our roster when we're still missing a big. Again, I asked you who plays the 5 and who do we trade OG for if where bringing in alphabet? That would be like the jays trading for Lindor or the leafs trading for McDavid while keeping AM and JT....sure would be nice to have but unnecessary.

You don't miss Kawhi? He's the best two-way player in the NBA and we had the perfect formula for load-management and we won the championship...whats not to like?

As far as the Jays go don't listen to the media they all work for Rogers and spew out the same nonsensical bull **** over and over again. It's still early and they literally have to sign someone (the MLB won't allow them to start the season with their current payroll). Like I said realistic targets we sadly should hope for are Walker, Roark and Teheran other than that... It's anyone guess. EE makes some sense for a reunion tour but knowing our FO likely not. I would take on bad contracts to get good prospects or good young players in return at this point in the rebuild.

While being tagged.....it will sound the same as i was arguing with 90% of fanbase here back in September 2018 already......

Till Wingers will play D for TML, Hasek wont help......

Neglecting the issues with D that TML has for years none of Goalies would be able to make it. Not a coincidence Bernier went from badass Backup to bust and also Andersen fell from 2.32 and 91,8% to 2,75 with same 91,8% since coming to TML.

TML D is currently built from :

2 x Wingers - Rielly & Barrie
2 x No.5 Dman - Ceci &Dermott
1 x No.6-7 Dman - Holl

and the only approximation of shutdown D called Muzzin whos working double shifts on Ice to cover crap the others paired with him are leaving out there and now he looks tired already isnt he ?

Andersen is first Goalie that can be considered a "difference maker" since Brodeur and Joseph. But he needs a decent backup that will bring him rested to playoffs and Hutchinson isnt that. Neither Woll will be ready soon, both Hutchinson and Kaskisuo are rolling him in AHL with stats and they couldnt put up against big bois....
Re-signing Andersen at 4 x 8M at his age of 32y

currently im playing with idea about TDL, but dont see any reason to post that AGM :

Hyman, Hutchinson <-----> DeSmith, 2nd 2021 (400k retained)
Barrie, Dermott, Timashov, 2nd 2020 <--------> Manson
Kerfoot, Ceci, 2nd, 3rd <-----> Bennett, Hamonic ( still working on this one, feels like fleecing CGY )

4M lost in overpayments aka "New Era Premium Contracts" narrowed D options big time on the top of all the other flaws the Team has already

I hope TML Fan Sheriff and his deputy wont strip me from my T-shirt also ( jersey is gone already amd they are stalking me at every post i made now, its nice to have own fan base here tho ) after yesterdays WIN OVER THE CHAMPIONS with the "new system of Keefe wizardy", cause you know, we dont shout Emperor is naked in TML land.....

It is interesting outside the box thinking.

From a salary cap perspective alone, I get it.

Rather bad optics but, business is business.

I think there are players left behind that should probably have been moved.

I neither despise or like this entire equation and I do think that there are better options.

5 stars for the idea, the out of the box thinking, and the debate that was generated from Tircksters AGM.

After reading through the thread over coffee this morning (which was a good way to start the day, btw) I think your post, Burger Boss, hits the nail on the head. I agree, the value seems good, but I'm not sure it's a fit given where each team is at and because of the recent history of Columbus not being able to retain pending ufas.

I could see how Seth Jones might be offered up if Columbus decides to hit a full rebuild, but if they do I'd imagine that it'd be a deal for a bucket full of picks and some top tier prospects of the Sandin variety. I think if Jones is ever traded it's to set the stage for something similar to what Ottawa is doing. The Sens take alot of flack but I think they're in a good spot to turn the team around in a couple years with guys like Chabot/Tkachuk, the picks they have now, plus the ones they're likely to get when they unload this years ufas.

If the leafs are seriously interested in trying to land Jones the best approach might be to unload Muzzin/Barrie and whatever Ceci can bring for every pick they can get and package that this summer with Sandin and/or Lily/Roberston to try and pry Jones free. Of course, that doesn't resolve what needs to be done to resign Andersen, but I agree with Random, it makes sense to keep a goalie like Freddy as long as you can even if that means that he walks at the end.

The other side of the coin here is that if the leafs try to unload Muzzin/Barrie for hopefully a first each then that's a pretty clear indication that they're folding up the tent on this season in order to retool a bit for next year. I'm not opposed to that approach at all if the leafs are on the outside looking in at the TDL.

Anyways, great atm idea by Trickster. And solid post in your response, BB. The idea of looking ahead to what needs to done given that Andersen and Rielly are coming up is something Toronto must be thinking about now. Increasingly, Ithough, I'm thinking one of the high priced forwards might need to go at some point to rebalance thier cap structure (which Trickster did here with Marner). Either that, or the Leafs better hope that the cap takes a huge jump in the next couple years. Otherwise somethings gotta give.

You probably need an eye test then....

Thanks to everyone in posting your thoughts, always appreciated.

Thank you especially @random2152 for presenting facts about why I was wrong about Crawford.

I can admit when I am wrong when facts support the opposite.

$100 million only gets you through the door for a meeting with a marquee FA rofl
It will take way more for someone to sign.
Still going to have to overpay even mid-rotation pitchers because it's Toronto and it's Canada.

Picks can be added to make such a deal more fair but I think a big addition for CBJ would be Marner and he's locked in on a deal...so he wouldn't be leaving any time soon. The exciting thing for CBJ in such a deal is Marner would be the best talent at forwards.

About Andersen: so and @Random2152 would ride out his contract and not bring him back...and I understand the decision is still at least a year away but I'd like to hear both your plans going forward regarding goaltending.

Wait...Random mentioned Crawford? Hmm...what about his injury history? Doesn't scare you?

OFC I am worried about Crawford's injury history, the idea would be to sign him to a reasonable 2 year deal to back up Freddy next year and sign another interim goalie the year after for 3 years or so to work as a tandem until one of the prospects are ready.

Basically don't overwork either of the stopgaps and injury trouble and goalie constancy should be fine

$100mill doesn't get you a meeting when the marquee FA and their agent know that's your top offer or very close to it...they won't waste their time. . don't know if you saw it but Cole was offered $245mill over 7 years from the Yankees. Yeah, we'll probably have to overpay the second tier guys but I think we can get Roark for around $10 and Teharen for $15 same with Walker which I could live with. Being in Canada only matters to American players we target but I get your point.

Did I change your mind about Giannis or the trade at all?... I'm guessing not.

Well, I think everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.. or something like that .

I guess what I'm trying to say is that context always trumps planning in a vacuum. I honestly think that the leafs plan is that they're counting on a substantial bump in the salary cap with the new tv deal, which will allow them to deal with Andersen and Rielly, and will justify the overpays to Marner and AM. That, and they're probably thinking that they might have a bridge in place with one of Woll or Scott.

But if neither or none of those things happen then they'll need to readjust their cap structure. Which means one of the top paid players will likely need to go.

I like what Dubas and company are doing. They're going against conventional wisdom and betting on where the puck is going to be instead of where it's at.. Of course, they could be wrong. And in that case it will very likely cost Dubas and co. their jobs.. but you gotta like their guts in placing the bet that they have.